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  #1  
Old 01-16-2011, 05:52 PM
Chris Watkins Chris Watkins is offline
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Default pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

So, I was a cubase/nuendo user for about 10 years, spent the last
couple years with a MIX system and now have pt9. I have never
found an elegant solution to fixing heavy double kick metal drums in time.

I usually have sit through the "Drum Editing" suggestions or videos
and eventually came up with a hybrid solution. But it's a pita,
and doesn't work well. We're talking hours to get it right usually.

But here is my question:

I have always had significant issues correcting live tracked drumming that didn't use a click. Now, I'm not a complete idiot here, one time I actually came up with this average algorithm to fix my issues.
But let me add some more detail, the projects I am doing where this is a problem is 140bpm to 172 or so bpm. It's metal drummers who's timing
isn't bad, but isn't perfect. So, he probably is back smack on every "whole" note. However, the sections where he's doing doubles on the kicks is almost
imposible to time correctly. (some drummers flutter while others are consistent, just not on the speed inbetween the measures (# of kicks per bar)
I have tried multitrack stretch, (recording then switching to clicks and "stretching") depending how big of sections I do complete changes the behavior. (Basicly the algorithm just can't hack it.)
I have tried with beat detective, but say the 4 count intro might be 172bpm,
the next 4 measures 170, the 4 after that 166, etc.

So, these "runs" as the bands have called it present an issue. Most metal
bands couldn't play to a click to save their lives. (well, around here anyway.)
So, out of the gate on the project the drums have to be corrected or I spent
forever with guitar overdubs.

I had the most faith in "stretching" working, but I'm not sure what the best course is. If I split up (assuming 4/4) the stuff by quarter notes, I have
less markers to deal with, but I'm not exactly confident on which ones to leave in either.. I typically time alight everything first so the cymbals aren't
a "little" off so the markers line up. But When selecting say, 1/16 notes the
snare eventually gets too far "out" by adding the room on the kick tracks.

I Haven't figured out multitrack beat detective, but I assume I'm going to have the same crossfade issues I had before with it.

Is there anybody out there that tracks these non-click bands that do large sections of double kick and then found a way to conform the performance
without it sounding like crap? It's really an art form, and I'll bet there are a few of us out there..

Last edited by Chris Watkins; 01-16-2011 at 05:53 PM. Reason: spelling sucks
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  #2  
Old 01-16-2011, 06:37 PM
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Top Jimmy Top Jimmy is offline
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

The way I've been leaning towards is using BD to generate bar|beat markers and then quantizing these markers to the grid.

Generate bar|beat markers. Change tracks to tick based. Turn on elastic audio. Turn off the conductor and set the tempo manually. If you like the results despite some very minor artifacting, switch to X-form and walk away for 20 minutes. I've found this process to be fairly rewarding.

If happy, you can switch the tracks back to sample based and get on with fixing the next bunch of tracks.
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:55 PM
bradch00 bradch00 is offline
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

Hi Chris;

I feel your pain and to tell you the truth (and to retain my sanity), I have replaced the double kicks and more often than not, the entire drum kit using one of the commercially available drum replacement programs, converting the performance to midi, finding it much easier to clean-up midi notes and trigger samples.

Sorry that's probably not the answer you were hoping for....
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:20 AM
Chris Watkins Chris Watkins is offline
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

Oh, replacement DEFINATELY works better, until either the drummer notices or you admit he sucks and replaced his a**. Hey, after you do the kick you might as well do everything but the OH's... Then it sounds nice and clean and everybody but the drummer wants it... Until you go to the guitist have him record clean, fix his performance and he doesn't want *it* either.
Yes, I'm an engineer turned into producer by default and have no nuts.

Ok, I see this X-form thing so, I was close yesterday, once I perform beat
markers, I can natural see the splits and where the timing problems are..
Are you saying if the regions are all selected when I switch to "Xform" the
spaces will elasticly expand?

Because it seems to me the is is a way safer way of making multitrack cross
cuts rather than the markers, which are flubby to deal with and I always see
a little deviation in where the markers are in a line..
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:39 AM
ondruspat ondruspat is offline
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

My first suggestion is to make a bar/beat tempo map over your session, using either Beat Detective or (my usual method) "tab to transients" and "identify beats". Once you have a tempo map over your session work on your session a few bars at a time. With both Beat Detective and Elastic Audio the results seem to be better when you work on smaller sections.

Most the time I end up using EA to adjust all the drum tracks (in a group btw), getting all the hits to fall where I want them, then I replace the weak or inconsistant hits. Don't make the drummer feel bad about you "replacing" his hits, I always do a "single hit" session with my drummers so that when I'm replacing there sounds I can use a clean sample recorded of their own drums. It's replaced but it's still "their" drums so they usually feel better (and then I beef them up with other samples, or replace them entirely if the sound sucks...)
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Watkins View Post
Ok, I see this X-form thing so, I was close yesterday, once I perform beat markers, I can natural see the splits and where the timing problems are.. Are you saying if the regions are all selected when I switch to "Xform" the spaces will elasticly expand?

Because it seems to me the is is a way safer way of making multitrack cross
cuts rather than the markers, which are flubby to deal with and I always see
a little deviation in where the markers are in a line..
X-form is Avid's best rendered elastic algorithm. It has to render before you can hear it and it takes a little time. I don't switch to X-form until I'm happy with the real-time elastic results.

Ondruspat is on the same track as me. When you use the bar|beat markers to warp, you're not using the elastic analysis markers. All of the grouped tracks will warp exactly the same since they all are being warped at exactly the same point.

If you decide to try my method, follow the instructions I gave exactly. You also don't have to turn off the conductor. Once the tracks are tick based and elastic audio is on, you can apply Event>Tempo Operation to the regions or you can click and drag the tempo markers instead.
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  #7  
Old 01-19-2011, 03:21 PM
elicious elicious is offline
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

Quote:
When you use the bar|beat markers to warp, you're not using the elastic analysis markers.
yes, and because of this,
you can remove the analysis markers
by changing event sensitivity to zero.
which in many cases will remove most artifacts
(esp. on long cym decays...)

when that works you can leave the trax in real time if you wish
and not have to wait for X(tremely slow)-form to work
e
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:54 PM
Chris Watkins Chris Watkins is offline
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

Yes, exact steps would be GREAT! so I can play with it,
I can guarantee I won't be the only one interested.
But, basicly, chopping with bar beet keeps everything straight,
which was my issues with the markers.. (Even cubase had the issue.)
I mean I guess it's not an "issue" cause you might want it that
way for certain situations, but not on a multi-miked drum kit..
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:59 PM
Chris Watkins Chris Watkins is offline
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

Oh, and explain this "single hit" method...
I've heard of having them do midi (done that)
or recording the cymbals separate, but not a "stroke" session? :)
In cubase I was pretty happy with drumagog for that sort of thing,
I don't know the pt equivalent cause I haven't had to use it,
but it's great for a bright bottom snare sound w/o bass wash to
mix with the real hit top mic track..
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:36 AM
jameswilletts jameswilletts is offline
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Default Re: pt9 newest drum editing multitrack howto?

Hey, guys, I'm a little confused on the workflow....

I've got one client's song that was a little bit of a disaster, and had to change the tempo as mentioned above....

I'm familiar with changing the drums to "rhythmic" in EA and changing the tempo, but once I'm happy with the tempo.....

I change it to "X-Form" and does the file render automatically? Or do I need to "disable elastic audio" and "render files" after I X-form?

Once I'm happy, I'm looking to save my CPU power. Make sense? My question is the order... X-form and then disable?

And anyone prefer enabling "Formant" in the X-Form window for drums? I gather it's mostly for pitch-based tracks, or am I mistaken?

Thanks, gang!

- James
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