Animated film 'frames' questions

[garnoil]

I am dubbing a 2d feature film (animated). I was given a Pro-Res HD video, it is playing from Pro-Tools HD 2 TDM. Many of the video frames in the film do not move and when the camera pans, there is very visible stutter. The producer indicated that this should be the final, 24 f/s, cut and that may be there was a problem during 'ingest" (I think the producer got an HD tape of the film and had someone pull the video to create a Pro-Res...but I am not 100% sure how that was done or if that was even the case).

Now, what I see in Pro-Tools is that I'll sync a word to the lip movement and it will look fine, but the next time that Pro-Tools plays the same segment the newly synchronized word, will looks off! I have Pro-Tools set to 1 Frame Grid so that it always starts play back accurately but I see too many -out of sync (after it looked fine). Can this be something that may be attributed to these "non-moving frames and stuttering pans- that this film has? Can Pro-Tools not recognize or be confused if there are duplicate video frames? and therefore begin play back from a different frame?

[tj_davies]

Originally Posted by garnoil

I am dubbing a 2d feature film (animated). I was given a Pro-Res HD video, it is playing from Pro-Tools HD 2 TDM. Many of the video frames in the film do not move and when the camera pans, there is very visible stutter. The producer indicated that this should be the final, 24 f/s, cut and that may be there was a problem during 'ingest" (I think the producer got an HD tape of the film and had someone pull the video to create a Pro-Res...but I am not 100% sure how that was done or if that was even the case).

Now, what I see in Pro-Tools is that I'll sync a word to the lip movement and it will look fine, but the next time that Pro-Tools plays the same segment the newly synchronized word, will looks off! I have Pro-Tools set to 1 Frame Grid so that it always starts play back accurately but I see too many -out of sync (after it looked fine). Can this be something that may be attributed to these "non-moving frames and stuttering pans- that this film has? Can Pro-Tools not recognize or be confused if there are duplicate video frames? and therefore begin play back from a different frame?

I always use a pre-roll of 1s - at least. Sometimes I have the feeling Pro Tools needs a few frames to be spot on sync - but I guess that's just my personal impression. Probably my brain playing tricks on me.

What video codec do you use in your session?

On which device are you watching the video? An external LCD or Plasma will cause a noticable delay/latency, which you can prevent by adding the correct "Video Sync Offset". Even a TFT computer display can have a delay/latency.

Any plugins causing too much delay, that Pro Tools can't compensate?

Hope you get it sorted,
Timothy

[nucelar]

It seems to me your video is badly encoded. Open it in quicktime player and advance frame by frame (arrows) and see if the same happens. If it's indeed the case you should request a correct video with BITC.

How bad is your inconsistent sync perception? "Unacceptably bad" or "I think it may be slightly out of sync this time"? It could be a codec/video card/display latency issue or just psychosomatic! Ask a colleague if he thinks the same. I often get called paranoid.

[Chief Technician]

Originally Posted by garnoil

I am dubbing a 2d feature film (animated). I was given a Pro-Res HD video, it is playing from Pro-Tools HD 2 TDM. Many of the video frames in the film do not move and when the camera pans, there is very visible stutter. The producer indicated that this should be the final, 24 f/s, cut and that may be there was a problem during 'ingest" (I think the producer got an HD tape of the film and had someone pull the video to create a Pro-Res...but I am not 100% sure how that was done or if that was even the case).

Was the HD tape at a frame rate other than 24? If so, my guess is that the pull-down operation was not done properly.

Originally Posted by garnoil

Now, what I see in Pro-Tools is that I'll sync a word to the lip movement and it will look fine, but the next time that Pro-Tools plays the same segment the newly synchronized word, will looks off! I have Pro-Tools set to 1 Frame Grid so that it always starts play back accurately but I see too many -out of sync (after it looked fine). Can this be something that may be attributed to these "non-moving frames and stuttering pans- that this film has? Can Pro-Tools not recognize or be confused if there are duplicate video frames? and therefore begin play back from a different frame?

Pro Tools is at the mercy of the QuickTime video engine when it comes to playback. When you press play, Pro Tools reads the video frame off the disk and sends it to QuickTime. Once QuickTime has it, AVID has no control over when or how the frame is played out. It is not uncommon to play something with good sync, play it again with bad sync, and then play it a third time with good sync. Such is life with QuickTime video playback, though it should be in sync more often than not.

[garnoil]

Originally Posted by tj_davies

I always use a pre-roll of 1s - at least. Sometimes I have the feeling Pro Tools needs a few frames to be spot on sync - but I guess that's just my personal impression. Probably my brain playing tricks on me.

What video codec do you use in your session?

On which device are you watching the video? An external LCD or Plasma will cause a noticable delay/latency, which you can prevent by adding the correct "Video Sync Offset". Even a TFT computer display can have a delay/latency.

Any plugins causing too much delay, that Pro Tools can't compensate?

Hope you get it sorted,
Timothy

I am using Pro-Res HD, it is not a latency issue with the display (I have sync check and can view the film in several displays). I have the Blackmagic Intensity (the expensive one), for external, but I can also and can also view HDMI out of the Mac on my desk top. It is not a plugin this is not an audio to video sync issue, this strictly a video frame or codec or similar issue.

[garnoil]

Originally Posted by Chief Technician

Was the HD tape at a frame rate other than 24? If so, my guess is that the pull-down operation was not done properly.



Pro Tools is at the mercy of the QuickTime video engine when it comes to playback. When you press play, Pro Tools reads the video frame off the disk and sends it to QuickTime. Once QuickTime has it, AVID has no control over when or how the frame is played out. It is not uncommon to play something with good sync, play it again with bad sync, and then play it a third time with good sync. Such is life with QuickTime video playback, though it should be in sync more often than not.

"It is not uncommon to play something with good sync, play it again with bad sync, and then play it a third time with good sync."

This has been bothering me for many years. Is it the same problem with Video Satellite (it is also quick time). What system do I have to buy so that the video sync - not talking about audio latency because of plugins or video latency because of displays-, I am talking about having a system that plays the video from the exact same video edge, 100% accurate and consistent every single time I press play?

[Postman]

I see this all the time when editing with QuickTime in PT. Perhaps the data rate of the ProRes movie is on the higher side, greater than PT10 with QuickTime can handle on your machine. Whenever I transcode to a lower resolution (I usually go to 720x486) it works much better. I'm running a 3ghz Westmere Mac, PTHD.

Avid Video Satellite (Media Composer) running on genlocked hardware always maintains excellent and repeatable sync. Of course, it has its own issues and costs. But, it works.

[garnoil]

Originally Posted by Postman

I see this all the time when editing with QuickTime in PT. Perhaps the data rate of the ProRes movie is on the higher side, greater than PT10 with QuickTime can handle on your machine. Whenever I transcode to a lower resolution (I usually go to 720x486) it works much better. I'm running a 3ghz Westmere Mac, PTHD.

Avid Video Satellite (Media Composer) running on genlocked hardware always maintains excellent and repeatable sync. Of course, it has its own issues and costs. But, it works.

thanks Postman, but isn't Video Satellite also based on the Quick Time video engine? This would make the QT video just as unreliable, would it not? I have a sync HD box so I can genlock. The cost for Video Satellite (light version) is not high, but in my city the "approved Avid dealer" is not able to set up the system so that I can see it actually working to check that the video will in fact play from the video frame every single time. I've asked the dealer three times, and they just say...we don't have a system, and we can't set it up.

[groundcontrol]

Aren't you located in eastern Canada?

[Postman]

thanks Postman, but isn't Video Satellite also based on the Quick Time video engine? This would make the QT video just as unreliable, would it not?

Hi,
I want to be extra-careful to avoid confusion. To be clear, I am talking about "Avid Video Satellite" which is Media Composer running as a slave. This is not at all the same as Avid's "Video Satellite" that most people use, which is really just another instance of Pro Tools running as a slave. "Video Satellite" and "Avid Video Satellite" are entirely different despite similarlity of names. Pro Tools and Media Composer would seem to deal with actual QuickTime movies in different ways.

Media Composer 5.5 and up can ingest media in two very distinct ways, which addresses your question.
1. import media, which usually transcodes your movie to Avid-specific media. Once imported, Media Composer plays the transcoded files, in fact you can remove the original files if you wish. This method of playback is extremely robust and plays every frame of video (up to the limits of your particular system at which time it will stop with an error message). It is the traditional way to work in Media Composer and you have freedom to edit, export and transcode without running into problems. It's main downside is that the import process can be time consuming, especially with high resolutions.
2. Link to AMA files, which apparently uses Apple's QuickTime engine. In this case Media Composer plays your original file, up/down rez in realtime to your project's settings. The benefit is that there is no import time. There are downsides, first is that some editing is limited and there are problems exporting from AMA-linked media. The systems is slightly less responsive (longer pause after pressing play button), and frames MAY be skipped or the movie slip out of sync during satellite playback. Like QuickTime playback in PT it seems to depend on a particular codec. I have learned to avoid AMA-linking to H264 movies because they often cause me problems. Higher resolution H264's are mostly unuseable on my system, whereas I've had little or no problems with any size or flavor of ProRes and DNxHD QuickTime movies.

I am currently running Media Composer 6 on a Win7 HP x8400 with 15k Raid 0 drives, and NitrisDX interface. The cpu is older and in fact is not supported anymore with version 6, but it runs okay. I use both methods to ingest and play video files as a satellite. Link to AMA method is great when I'm in a hurry. Except as noted above with some AMA-linked files, I NEVER have skipped frames or sync variabilities. When I do have problems, I import the movies in the tradition way (sometimes overnight!). That always allows flawless playback.