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  #361  
Old 10-01-2014, 10:35 AM
propower propower is offline
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

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Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The studio rack plug-in can be run in input mode with no plug-ins at all to give you 40 sample input monitoring on a project requiring a huge buffer setting.
I don;t get the importance of this. It may be PT specific but LowLatencyMonitoring on AVID i/o s gets essentially A/D and D/A time monitoring and zero additional samples (vs 40 for StudioRack).
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  #362  
Old 10-01-2014, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

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Originally Posted by studioj11 View Post
well if you track through sound grid monitoring (using studio rack) you can not mix native and SG plugins. you would not hear any native plugins instantiated on the PT track.

I'm a bit less focused on the minutia when it comes to this stuff and rely more on feel and sense of convenience... but as far as latency the only latency that would concern you is on the track that is in record at any given time. And most of the waves plugs that are SG (not all) have minimal (or no) delay, just like they did with TDM. As someone who worked with TDM for 8 or so years I can say this system feels like that even if you are running in SGP mode when you are tracking through StudioRack in SG mode.

But yes, if you are an HDX user and feel you have plenty of DSP to spare then it makes less sense to buy into this solely for plugin hosting. I think waves et al are too focused on that for the HDX user...

the networking thing however is the effing bomb. AND if you are a native person in ANY daw this tech will bring new freedom to your tracking process.
I agree the networking possibility is a beast just like on the REDNET, but would I have the choice I wouldn't buy a dsp box to get the networking when you can pay less just for the networking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The studio rack plug-in can be run in input mode with no plug-ins at all to give you 40 sample input monitoring on a project requiring a huge buffer setting.

It took me quite a while to wrap my head around that but this is a revolution for native systems along with being a way to get HDX performance from SoundGrid plug-ins.
Bob, how often do you track without plugin on the input track, no comp, no reverb/delay, no eq? Vocalist needs those things to be able to give a good performance, so does drummers etc. Saying that oh you can run the SG Pluging but have no plugins running in the SGP is kind of pointless, it's just like saying, well I can run the HDX card in I/O without plugins. It would simply be money wasted in either case. Even if you run the plugins in the Mixer ST, the plugins are still requiring resources which means they will ad their latency to the chain.

In any case, the marketing as pointed out toward HDX users is futile, if they push it more as a complimentary system a la UAD then they might have some more interest for some, but right now with how they are trying to pass this as the good news for HDX users.. it's just not working.
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  #363  
Old 10-01-2014, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

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Originally Posted by upscaps View Post
As an HDX user I see this as a Waves version of a UAD2 card. Do I use so many waves plugins as native to justify purchasing this unit to go w/ AAX-DSP and UAD2 Octos? Nope.
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  #364  
Old 10-01-2014, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

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Originally Posted by Emcha_audio View Post
Bob, how often do you track without plugin on the input track, no comp, no reverb/delay, no eq? Vocalist needs those things to be able to give a good performance, so does drummers etc. .
I've been tracking records for 45 years, never compressed drums and only compressed vocals just enough that compressing in the mix off tape wouldn't be excessively noisy. I don't recall ever tracking with a plug-in on the input channel.

What input buffer setting do you use on your HDX system? The studiorack completely bypasses the Pro Tools input buffer which means it is not 40 samples in addition to the Pro Tools buffer, it is only 40 samples. That's only .1 ms more than an HDX system and .16 ms less than a HD Accel system! That's mighty impressive if you ask me, especially for native users.
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  #365  
Old 10-02-2014, 07:31 AM
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Default Waves Studiorack

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Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I've been tracking records for 45 years, never compressed drums and only compressed vocals just enough....... I don't recall ever tracking with a plug-in on the input channel.
Whoa - never on the desk? Never a db or two just to squeeze the kick and toms? And some to control the snare?

Edit - I just reread that - while tracking !!! Nevermind - I initially understood this as mixing - we good !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
That's mighty impressive if you ask me, especially for native users.(ie latency)

For the price I would rather have HD|N


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  #366  
Old 10-02-2014, 08:23 AM
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I've been tracking records for 45 years, never compressed drums and only compressed vocals just enough that compressing in the mix off tape wouldn't be excessively noisy. I don't recall ever tracking with a plug-in on the input channel.
What input buffer setting do you use on your HDX system? The studiorack completely bypasses the Pro Tools input buffer which means it is not 40 samples in addition to the Pro Tools buffer, it is only 40 samples. That's only .1 ms more than an HDX system and .16 ms less than a HD Accel system! That's mighty impressive if you ask me, especially for native users.
When I'm using an HD or HDX system (don't have a HDX system at the moment, although it's in the plans) We are always using the lowest possible even with plugins on the input channels, which mostly consists of an eq, compressor and Delay or Reverb, all of these of course are only for tracking purposes when the instrumentalist requires it, which they most often do at least like to have it for a better feel to their performance and a better overall quick mix while tracking. Even in the Analogue days we were using the same things on the que mixes so the performer would feel better performing.

As far as native user, with the new input buffer why would you want to add an other layer of latency? The problem I see for the native users right now, is that if they want to mix and match they will have that latency+plugin latency, so if they can use the plugins in the host instead that on the box and benefit from PT's 11 input buffer and still run the other plugins on the playback buffer without adding latency why should they pay for the box? Unless really that they are lacking power of course.

That box never was meant to target pure native users, it's not necessary for them. It was meant to target the customers of waves that were using DSP system like HD or UAD, and it's failing at least in the former and probably will fail at the second, as I don't see how an UAD user would want to pay even more for an other box of DSP when they are already heavily invest in the UAD cards which have superb plugs that match and surpasses for some the waves one, leaving them the CPU host power to use the waves plugins for the one they need.
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  #367  
Old 10-02-2014, 09:34 AM
propower propower is offline
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

First off from a Latency POV - lets get the numbers straight. - tracking through plug ins at 96kHz (the only data point we usually get)... in all cases this is with zero additional latency plug ins. Note that for an AVID i/o the A/D + D/A conversion time at 96kHz is ~0.47ms (this is also the Low Latency monitor path latency - analog to analog)

HDX = 0.7ms through PT with plugs (HDX processing ~ 0.23ms)
Waves DLS with SG driver (SGP mode?? what hte heck does SGP stand for??) = 0.8ms + A/D D/A = 1.27ms
Waves DLS + HDX = 0.7ms + 0.8ms = 1.5ms (or is this 0.47ms + 0.8ms??)
HDN = 1.7ms (64 buffer)

Now to me there is no revolution going on - only AVB or Ethernet audio coming of age. There is also any number of solutions for tracking native with someones proprietary dsp at very low latency (96kHz numbers)

Apollo - 1.1ms
The new MOTU - 0.33ms - with Ethernet networking!!!
Orion Zen
Steinberg
Aurora
Metric Halo
etc....

The Waves allure (and their system has many attractive features) is to use plugs we already know (and hopefully love) combined with good integration with ProTools. I love my Waves stuff but could totally live without if needed. Also I have a killer nMP that runs HDN at 96kHz 64 buffer really well. So I can use anyones plugs in record channels at 0.5ms higher latency than a DLS would do. For me - 1.7ms is good enough... but I have to be careful to keep buffers that low and all my projects are small (24 tracks or less usually)
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  #368  
Old 10-02-2014, 10:57 AM
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emcha_audio View Post
That box never was meant to target pure native users, it's not necessary for them. It was meant to target the customers of waves that were using DSP system like HD or UAD, and it's failing at least in the former and probably will fail at the second, as I don't see how an UAD user would want to pay even more for an other box of DSP when they are already heavily invest in the UAD cards which have superb plugs that match and surpasses for some the waves one, leaving them the CPU host power to use the waves plugins for the one they need.
I think they are hoping to lure someone like me, an HDX owner that was a previous TDM and Mercury bundle owner, but that had never bought into the UAD program. Now I could get a similar function as UAD, but with Waves plugins that I have been using for years.

But, it is never going to happen. I'll never buy a box to run plugins I paid $12,000 for. They have instead lost my future business and yearly WUP forever. AAX DSP I would have paid for, but instead I will move on and never look back at Waves.
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  #369  
Old 10-02-2014, 06:38 PM
studioj11 studioj11 is offline
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

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Originally Posted by ghostwriter View Post
I think they are hoping to lure someone like me, an HDX owner that was a previous TDM and Mercury bundle owner, but that had never bought into the UAD program. Now I could get a similar function as UAD, but with Waves plugins that I have been using for years.

But, it is never going to happen. I'll never buy a box to run plugins I paid $12,000 for. They have instead lost my future business and yearly WUP forever. AAX DSP I would have paid for, but instead I will move on and never look back at Waves.
I suspect there are lots of people in your situation who feel the same way. I certainly was in that camp when digigrid was first announced. If it were just a plugin box I would tend to still agree... but digigrid is soooo much more than a UAD for waves plugins. It is a routing and networking powerhouse, interapp, across network, across devices... the possibilities are vast. It is now the entire package of features that is luring me in. and hey its awesome that I happen to have a mercury TDM bundle...

does it bug you that avid has never released a decent core audio driver for its hardware? well you can route system audio to your avid IO's with the emotion mixer (using the sg core audio driver in system preferences). record system audio directly into a PT audio track if you want. thats just the tip of the iceberg.
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  #370  
Old 10-02-2014, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Waves Studiorack

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Originally Posted by studioj11 View Post
It is a routing and networking powerhouse, interapp, across network, across devices... the possibilities are vast. It is now the entire package of features that is luring me in. and hey its awesome that I happen to have a mercury TDM bundle...

does it bug you that avid has never released a decent core audio driver for its hardware? well you can route system audio to your avid IO's with the emotion mixer (using the sg core audio driver in system preferences). record system audio directly into a PT audio track if you want. thats just the tip of the iceberg.
As a multiple HDX rig facility, none of this appeals to us.

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Originally Posted by studioj11 View Post
but digigrid is soooo much more than a UAD for waves plugins
A simple "UAD for Waves plugins" would get a better reception. Priced under $2k and 50% off for registered Mercury users.
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