new pro tools is not as good

[corp]

Originally Posted by mightyduck

Its definitely a transitional release. They almost come right out and say it.

Not saying that you can't make a record with it, btw. I just think they are in marketing overdrive, and they are asking for a lot of money, considering....

Yep, marketing overdrive but there's many things that have to fall in place before I can move..... Apple new computer and new plugs which both are not available.

[Greg Malcangi]

Originally Posted by mightyduck

You're trying to redefine the argument. The fact is that the 48 bit mixer plugin, the entire mixer, is 48 bit fixed. The other parts of the data path you mentioned are not part of the double precision plugin. Do you understand that?

No it's not. When a mix spans more than 1 DSP chip the TDM mixer truncates the mix (or dithers it with the dithering mixer) to 24 bits and passes it to the next DSP chip allocated to mxing. Do you understand that!

Originally Posted by mightyduck

It gets dithered with the dithered mixer. Dither is not an "artifact". It prevents artifacts. Even truncation at that level is trivial, and, unless your analog noise floor is below -110dBfs or so, inaudible.

Dither randomises quantisation error and results in the artefact of uncorrelated noise. So, you are saying that large numbers of truncation (or dither) artefacts summed together never result in audible signal degradation. Interesting but rather sadly misinformed.

Originally Posted by mightyduck

What you don't realize, perhaps, is that 32 bit float also has only 24 bits of precision, and it cannot be dithered. So you are stuck with truncation or rounding, and each time the significand changes you throw more quantization error into the calculation. The quantization error in floating point is not limited to the lsb area, it gets written into the file at much higher amplitudes also, and dither is neither practical nor effective there.

So Paul Frindle was wrong all along, either that or you don't know what you're talking about. Please tell me you don't know who Paul Frindle is!

Originally Posted by mightyduck

Let me guess. You bought a brand new P.T. 10 system, right? : )

How many times can you be wrong in one post? I've run protools since version 4 and owned various TDM systems for almost as long as they've been on the market. I currently own and work with a HD3 and a HD2 system as well as two 32bit FP Protools systems.

OK, I'm outta here, I've had enough fun playing with the troll for one day. :)

G

[mightyduck]

Originally Posted by dubpimpjuice

"Not to be a downer or anything, but I see and hear a lot of spin, from Avid, and from others, about how the "new 32 bit floating point" mixer is an improvement."

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, sir (or madam).
Go troll gearslutz with this flame bait...

That's a ridiculous, conclusory statement, with no substance to back it up.

I'm not exactly alone in what I am saying. Furthermore, you act as if I am saying that pro tools 10 doesn't work, or something of that nature. I am just saying that the audio path is not as good. Avid admits that themselves in so many words. Why do you think they are moving to 64 bit?

[mightyduck]

Originally Posted by formfunction

OMG, he is back. For anyone taking the bait, do yourselves a favor and look back at old posts from the great MD-baiter.
I am going to sit on the sidelines and watch the debacle unfold. ff

What's an MD-baiter? You may have me confused with someone else.

Anyhow, throwing insults at me does not make me wrong.

I'm obviously right about what I am saying. I will note that some folks seem to be taking my statement to mean something else.

[mightyduck]

Originally Posted by Greg Malcangi

No it's not. When a mix spans more than 1 DSP chip the TDM mixer truncates the mix (or dithers it with the dithering mixer) to 24 bits and passes it to the next DSP chip allocated to mxing. Do you understand that!

Look, all I am saying [and all that matters] is that mixing calculations [where the wordlength is manipulated] is always done at 48 bit double. The fact that the audio chugs along between processes at 24 bit [where the wordlength is not being manipulated] is of no moment.

So your pedantic point is utterly pointless, and simply argumentative, as is your entire presence in this thread in my view.

Dither randomises quantisation error and results in the artefact of uncorrelated noise. So, you are saying that large numbers of truncation (or dither) artefacts summed together never result in audible signal degradation. Interesting but rather sadly misinformed.

You don't understand dither, and you are using artificial terminology to try to cover your previous misstatements.

So Paul Frindle was wrong all along, either that or you don't know what you're talking about. Please tell me you don't know who Paul Frindle is!

Well, since you are totally vague about which of Paul's statements you are referring to, you're question is meaningless. But, by way of trying to help you I will state that Paul Frindle has definitely been known to be wrong on occasion. That does not make him wrong about everything, but he has been known to be wrong. He has also been known to spin things and provide explanations that are more or less intended to justify his methodologies and products. Almost all coders have to work with 32 bit audio in order to survive, and they all have a hard time admitting that it is sub-optimal, because they don't want to give the impression that there is anything about their products that is not the best that could ever be.

Moorer and Johnston, and people like that are a more reliable source since they have no real dog in the race, and, frankly, because they are simply more learned. Paul Frindle helped design some nice plugins, I guess, and, arguably, one of the worst sounding consoles ever to come into wide use, but he is not a research scientist and, although I don't know him that well, I do not believe that he would claim to bbe. To my knowledge, Frindle has never designed, or marketed a DAW, although I'm sure at least some, and perhaps much, of his work is good.

Anyhow, your "question" is framed in such an obnoxious way that it reveals that you are simply trying to be antagonistic. According to your warped logic, we have to choose between either "Paul Frindle was wrong all along [you fail to state what issue he may have been wrong about]", or, conversely, "You [I] don't know what you're [I'm] talking about". Your pompous statement is improper and bereft of any type of logic because you apparently base your position on the false presumption that either Paul or I must be either right or wrong about everything [or some thing that you fail to reveal].

How many times can you be wrong in one post? I've run protools since version 4 and owned various TDM systems for almost as long as they've been on the market. I currently own and work with a HD3 and a HD2 system as well as two 32bit FP Protools systems.

OK, I'm outta here, I've had enough fun playing with the troll for one day. :)

G

You are just grandstanding, and trying to be insulting, in my view.

[mightyduck]

what I am saying is that the current 32 bit float audio path is not as precise as the TDM 48bit mixer.

I am saying that it is basically pro tools le, with some added bells and whistles.

I am saying that they had to use 32 bit rather than 64 bit [which would have been better], as an interim strategy, in order to maintain compatibility with the RTAS plugs and avoid a mutiny in the user base.

They say they intend to make the system real 64 bit double, which will be an improvement.

For most people with big TDM rigs, and who really understand how to use them, them, it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy a "transitional system" at great cost. It makes more sense to wait until they trot out the 64 bit rigs.

You don't have to buy every little incremental so-called "upgrade" out of fear you'll fall behind, and most of the smart people don't. Avid is well-known for marketing spin, and trying to make people think that each upgrade is some sort of "milestone", when they are not. They are shameless in that regard.

[CME]

I'm pretty sure, fwiw, pro tools native does have a 64-bit float mixer. It started with HD|Native, with it's introduction. I think it was a special version of HD 8.5. Then they released Pro Tools 9 with the 64-bit float mix engine for all native systems. They just didn't highly publicize it. I assume to keep TDM guys happy. Finally with HDX they started making a big deal of it. Has nothing to do with whether or not the app is 64-bit. 64-bit pro tools will allow access to more RAM. Hopefully some more efficient code, but that will have to wait and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mightyduck]

Originally Posted by CME

I'm pretty sure, fwiw, pro tools native does have a 64-bit float mixer. It started with HD|Native, with it's introduction. I think it was a special version of HD 8.5. Then they released Pro Tools 9 with the 64-bit float mix engine for all native systems. They just didn't highly publicize it. I assume to keep TDM guys happy. Finally with HDX they started making a big deal of it. Has nothing to do with whether or not the app is 64-bit. 64-bit pro tools will allow access to more RAM. Hopefully some more efficient code, but that will have to wait and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As I stated in my original post, its my understanding that its currently only a type of 64 bit at certain places in the path, and not in as many places as TDM was 48 bit fixed.

[ejwells]

Duck-

For the love of God, must you post 75 times in your own thread?

[Numi]

Sounds like some people are more concerned with bits and stuff, rather than talent... who gives a crap really? Do you think any of the top producers of hit records recorded in the past Decade using pro tools really gives S$%t if the mixer is 24 or 48 or 32 or 64 bit?... let me save you the trouble if looking that up "NO!"

Give me a Sure 57 and a Tascam cassette 4-track recorder and some real talent and it will shine... or maybe some of us need Pro Tools 100 from the future in order to polish, and gold plate a turd...

I can't believe I wasted 5 mins of my life responding to this dumb post..