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  #121  
Old 11-05-2011, 06:49 PM
DJ Hellfire DJ Hellfire is offline
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Default Re: Let's clear the air, folks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Gutnik View Post
Customers do not determine a product's "intrinsic value". The intrinsic value of a product is determined by the process of making the product and the costs associated with said process. In other words, only the supplier can determine the intrinsic value and this value has nothing to do with what a customer thinks a loaf of bread is worth in the grocery store.

The "perceived value" that you refer to, is determined by the laws of supply and demand. Individual customer perceptions are only a small part of this equation, but lets not take this thread any further off topic.
Now about supply and demand, it has to be different when downloadable software is involved than when actual physical merchandise is involved, no? Now you guys will know more than me on this, but wouldn't it be better with something like software to sell for a little less and sell more? It's not like where with a physical product you sell, run out, and have to spend money to re-up. With software, you develop it, perfect it, put it out and you can sell an infinite amount of it and it won't cost you anything extra after R&D to keep resupplying it; other than whatever it costs to run your servers. Hope I'm making sense, but I would think that you can sell for a little less, and sure you may not make as much per sale, but you'd sell so much more quantity that you'd make everything back and more.

I'm just saying, studios aren't making as much money anymore. Everyone and there mama is an engineer or hotshot producer. Most of us have had to lower prices and make special package deals to try to keep getting new clients in the door. And here Avid goes making two significant price increases in a 12 month span. Just doesn't seem beneficial to your customer satisfaction index or approval rating.

With the iLok in place now, you guys are gonna make your money. You can't just give a copy of Pro Tools 7.4 or 8 to your homeboy with an Mbox anymore. If he want's the newer version he has to buy it. So I don't see the need for such drastic price increases for something you can sell an infinite amount of. I'm not saying sell it dirt cheap. But for $199 at maximum, I'd gladly take a copy of 10 off of your hands. Throw in Disk Cache with native and I'd gladly give you the $299 you're asking, possibly even $349.
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  #122  
Old 11-05-2011, 06:53 PM
hitp hitp is offline
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Default Re: Let's clear the air, folks...

Maybe why every one is really mad is that at the lowest HD level, the HD Native card at $3495 costs as much as a new 8 Core Mac Pro which in my opinion costs more to manufacture. Just look at the parts costs alone not to mention all the productivity software that comes with a new Mac, which I am sure also cost billions to develop. When you throw in another $399 for software like Studio One which is fast and nimble and 64bit and any of the under $1K interfaces, even Avid's own MBox Pro . . . you still come out ahead.

We are the biggest ProTools facility in our market. Yes we drank the cool aid and are moving on to PT10. But I want Avid management to know, the only reason for us upgrading is because as I really liked what I saw in PT10. My partners did not see any worth while improvement and did not want to do it. Our editors and mixers saw the launch and did not want it. Our Fortune 500 clients will not pay one cent more for it, and being in extreme cost cutting mode want to pay us even less.

Avid still has good people working for them and it pains me how top management had to make some tough decisions to survive. But I want Avid to know that the way they are pricing their products, it would be a hard pill to swallow for even "top of the food chain" facilities like ours.

Avid management, you guys make a great product that holds a unique position in the industry. The PT9 launch and now MC6 has shown you DO know how to make your customers happy. Please keep that in mind and know that your pricing strategy with the current PT10 roll out and killing of legacy hardware support may one day even alienate your biggest fans.
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  #123  
Old 11-05-2011, 07:32 PM
Ant B Ant B is offline
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Default Re: Let's clear the air, folks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
Perception is reality. Reality is the truth for each individual. Truth is universal.
This is all wrong except the last sentence. In fact everything prior to the last sentence would negate the truth of the last sentence if they were true. Perception is not reality. I can perceive that my girlfriend is in love with me and would never do anything to cause me harm. That doesn't lend to any truths, as we all should know. Let's leave the philosophy to the philosophers.


As to the rest - suffice it to say that while we are all free to voice our opinions about any subject matter... attempting to turn a company on it's ear by filling it's community board with vitriol to the tune of your disgruntlement about a product update you're not required to buy, likely haven't even tried, and probably do not need - is silliness. Do you need it? Then it's not expensive. If you don't need it - then its expense is not your real issue here.
  #124  
Old 11-05-2011, 07:58 PM
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Benoni Benoni is offline
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Default Re: Let's clear the air, folks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant B View Post
This is all wrong except the last sentence. In fact everything prior to the last sentence would negate the truth of the last sentence if they were true. Perception is not reality. I can perceive that my girlfriend is in love with me and would never do anything to cause me harm. That doesn't lend to any truths, as we all should know.
Well thats just not correct. Your example is not valid. I am talking epistemology, you are talking statistical philosophy. Which in philosophy can be a dangerous road to go down.

Such as, imagine a lottery with a billion tickets. Only one will win. You can pick up each and every ticket and say this ticket is not a winner, this ticket is not a winner, this ticket is not a winner, so on and so forth. And for each ticket you have loads of statistical evidence that you are right.... however you are wrong, and one of those tickets is in fact a winner.

But anyway, I promised DTS I would try and keep my posts out of the weeds, so if you would like to discuss this further please email me, or we can take it to the General Section.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant B View Post
Let's leave the philosophy to the philosophers.
You're talkin' to one I'm currently in the process of writing a book on political, social, and general philosophy.
  #125  
Old 11-05-2011, 08:14 PM
WernerF WernerF is offline
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Default Re: Let's clear the air, folks...

In refrence to Ant B; So then no one should ever express their honest opinion about anything right? And corporations should just do whatever they want because the people that they are attempting to sell a product to have absolutely no say in the process whatsoever. Yah, great point.
  #126  
Old 11-05-2011, 08:30 PM
propower propower is offline
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Default Re: Let's clear the air, folks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Hellfire View Post
With software, you develop it, perfect it, put it out and you can sell an infinite amount of it and it won't cost you anything extra after R&D to keep resupplying it; other than whatever it costs to run your servers.
Business is a process that starts long before a product ships and often continues long after. You are not considering,
1) who wrote the spec for the coders
2) who payed all the coders
3) who ever makes perfect anything
4) what is the next product
5) who is going to code the next one...... (starts the day the first one is released..... maybe even earlier)
facilities, HR, sales, and a ton of others.........

The price is set by the company. Success is in the marketplaces hands.......
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  #127  
Old 11-05-2011, 08:50 PM
DJ Hellfire DJ Hellfire is offline
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Default Re: Let's clear the air, folks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoni View Post
Perception is reality. Reality is the truth for each individual. Truth is universal.
^^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant B View Post
This is all wrong except the last sentence. In fact everything prior to the last sentence would negate the truth of the last sentence if they were true. Perception is not reality. I can perceive that my girlfriend is in love with me and would never do anything to cause me harm. That doesn't lend to any truths, as we all should know. Let's leave the philosophy to the philosophers.
How can you say perception is not reality? If that's what your girlfriend wants you to perceive then that is your reality. And I mean "wants you to perceive" is the old saying "smile in my face but behind my back they talk trash." But if she is blatantly dogging you, cheating, and spending all your money on Pro Tools updates and breaking your bank, all in your face without a care for your feelings, and you "perceive" that as love, then that my friend is not perception. That's confusion or denial or a whole list of other f'ed up syndromes only a shrink would know.

Then, how can you say reality is not truth? I mean, what's real is true. You can't say that the real physical computer monitor I am staring at is false. I can see and touch it. It's there. It's true. Benoni is absolutely correct!





Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
Business is a process that starts long before a product ships and often continues long after. You are not considering,
1) who wrote the spec for the coders
2) who payed all the coders
3) who ever makes perfect anything
4) what is the next product
5) who is going to code the next one...... (starts the day the first one is released..... maybe even earlier)
facilities, HR, sales, and a ton of others.........

The price is set by the company. Success is in the marketplaces hands.......
The huge success from mass amounts of sales will pay all of that. None of those people are gonna get paid anything if the product doesn't sell. Hence, 200 laid off workers, not getting paid! That 200 is only the start. If they sell 4 HD upgrades at $599 per every 1 HD upgrade at $999, they are already almost $1400 ahead of that 1 $999 HD sale at selling a product that isn't gonna cost them anything else to reproduce to meet demand. Where is the loss if those 4 HD users would have never upgraded at the price of $999 anyway? Perfect example, I'll take it back to the iphones. Things are selling like hot cakes and it's because it's a great product for the money you spend, not just because it's popular to say I have an iPhone. I've tried many smart phones and the iPhone is just better, and it's reasonably priced. I actually think it's pretty cheap with a 2 year contract for what it does and what you get, even though it costs $299 (32GB) just like the PT10 upgrade. Do you know how many people would buy new iPhones every year if they had to pay the full $600-700 price? Not nearly as many as there are at $200-300 I'm sure. And remember, they are paying people to code new software upgrades that are given out for FREE annually. And they have bug fix updates in between and they constantly have to pay some one to keep finding and patching jailbreak exploits. But because of their success, guess what else?! Apple is HIRING! And guess what else again?! The prices haven't gone up since they debuted 5 years ago! And the phones have gotten WAY better! And we're are talking physical product here that continually costs them money to reproduce. If you do enough to sell the current product, it'll ensure your future products do well, provided you remain innovative and consistent. Apple is living proof of that.
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Akai MPC 2000XL, Akai MPC X, Mackie 1202VLZ Pro, Akai Advance 61, Focal Alpha 80, UAD 2 Apollo Quad, UAD 2 Satellite Quad, UAD 2 Octo PCIe, Neve R6 "Lunch Box", Neve Portico 511, Neve Portico 551, Neumann TLM49

Pro Tools 2018.10

Mac Pro 4,1 (5,1 upgrade), Early-2009, 3.46GHz Nehalem 12-Core, 32GB RAM - OS 10.12.6

13" MacBook Pro, Late-2011, 2.4GHz Dual Core i5, 16GB RAM - OS 10.12.6

27" iMac, Late-2012, 3.4GHz i7, 24GB RAM - OS 10.12.6
  #128  
Old 11-06-2011, 01:40 AM
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DigiTechSupt DigiTechSupt is offline
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Default Re: Let's clear the air, folks...

Hi everyone,

We are going to close this thread. It has been part of a very healthy discussion for the better part of 2 weeks now but we feel it has come to a point that things are going round in circles.

We do understand and appreciate all opinions out there and realize that closing this thread will not make everybody equally happy. We sincerely apologize for that but at the same time have to ask each and everyone of you to respect this opinion.

We have come to a point where we want the focus on these forums to go back to supporting people rather then have it be dominated by political and controversial threads and subjects.

Thank you for your understanding and helping us.

For any questions regarding this decision please read and make sure you understand the forum terms of use which can be found here :

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=169558

Thank you
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