Please Avid We All Really Want You to Be Successful

[guitardom]

Originally Posted by TLarvenz

With all due respect you have clearly no idea what you're talking about. The price didn't jump for the 9HD upgrade. It jumped for 10. Also 9HD, allowed you to run without any hardware using the sometimes painful and buggy RTAS plug-ins. But to use all your best sounding (and reliable) TDM plug-ins, you still were required to have TDM hardware, even on PT9. You could use non-Avid interfaces (Apogee, which worked on ProTools 24|Mix, etc.) for years before that. It did LITERALLY change overnight between 9 & 10. Search the DUC for the announcement of the upgrade policy for 10HD and look at the outcry. Just like the new policy has quite literally changed overnight. The HDX crowd is locked into outdated hardware to begin with, having the flagship of the line rely on a card that can't even be plugged into a new system without using a bridge to the old style slots. Charging higher prices for the Native crowd makes sense. They're not tied to hardware and haven't invested as heavily as the non-native crowd. There's a reason so many people are still on 9HD. Had they made kept their upgrade price at a modest $200 or $300, everyone would be on at least 10. Instead they jacked it up - in the middle of a recession and a huge change in the music and post businesses - to prices that turned off diehard protools supporters. They slashed the development costs and engineering staff, off-shored all their programming, gave the president of Avid a $5.2 million salary and expect users to kick in more to upgrade. You lack the accurate historical knowledge to speak authoritatively about this or you're intentionally misleading people to make your point more palatable. Either way, I don't have time for you.

You got me thinking and you are partially right. I believe you were required to have an HD core card and give the serial number in order to upgrade period. I remember it being somewhat more expensive than previous. So the upgrade was still slaved to the hardware. At 10 you had the ability to upgrade without the core card serial number and had the ability through the CPTK to upgrade to HD for non TDM users. So 9 was the first partial shift and 10 was the next step to a full shift. If you are a person that stays current with the release builds, the price is not going up and actually cheaper than if you skip an upgrade and want to catch up. That being said, I still am not a fan of being forced to pay up front to stay current and can have heavy ramifications if you choose to skip a year.

You are rude to claim someone has no idea what they are talking about, especially on something like that where I guess you are supposed to remember every detail from 5 years ago. You are not the only one that has been around this block a few years!!! Considering you obviously did not remember all the facts either, it makes it a bit funny.

[TLarvenz]

Originally Posted by guitardom

You got me thinking and you are partially right. I believe you were required to have an HD core card and give the serial number in order to upgrade period. I remember it being somewhat more expensive than previous. So the upgrade was still slaved to the hardware. At 10 you had the ability to upgrade without the core card serial number and had the ability through the CPTK to upgrade to HD for non TDM users. So 9 was the first partial shift and 10 was the next step to a full shift. If you are a person that stays current with the release builds, the price is not going up and actually cheaper than if you skip an upgrade and want to catch up. That being said, I still am not a fan of being forced to pay up front to stay current and can have heavy ramifications if you choose to skip a year.

You are rude to claim someone has no idea what they are talking about, especially on something like that where I guess you are supposed to remember every detail from 5 years ago. You are not the only one that has been around this block a few years!!! Considering you obviously did not remember all the facts either, it makes it a bit funny.

You said:

These price changes didn't change overnight. This is demonstrably wrong. Upgrade Price 8-9 $349. 9-10, $999. The 7-8 upgrade was $249. A $100 jump is still reasonable. A $600 jump is unheard of.

"This change came when Pro Tools became open to "non" Avid interfaces." This is also demonstrably wrong. You could buy an Apogee in the 90's.

"It obviously required a change as why would they give the software away for 200$ and then have a person go spent 5k on another manufactures interface." This was not obvious nor even correct as you had to be an HD hardware owner at the time.

"But I cant blame them for raising the prices at version 9." The price jump was at 10.

Nothing you'd said was accurate yet I'm the backward one and somehow we're both right. Keep playing that tune guitar guy. I know people like you who are never wrong, no matter how wrong they are. Yes, I could have found a more non-combative way to tell you that you were wrong in the earlier post, but you were bashing someone else at the time and telling them that the prices have only gone down. You made claims about the products from 5 years ago. Now you claim how can someone remember every detail. You can't have it both ways. You make claims that I don't remember all the facts, which is true. But I do my homework. Maybe you should too before claiming all knowing authority without a shred of fact behind it.

[roboman01]

Originally Posted by David C Avid

Hi there,

This is Dave Colantuoni, and I run the Product Management team for Pro Tools. I wanted to take a moment and respond to a few items in this thread to help you understand the reasoning behind the new licensing model and what you get for your money.

First I want to address the "this roll out has been a mess" comment... Actually, it has been moving along quite well, and we have had a record amount of people who are taking advantage of this opportunity. We did the same for Media Composer back in 2014 and the upgrades were delivered were huge and now the licensing model is readily accepted. We expect the same on the audio side.

As for customers abandoning Avid, we really aren’t seeing this happen. While there is a lot of chatter online, people are seeing the value of this opportunity and taking advantage of it. $199 for a year of support/upgrades cost less than 75 cents a day. Most spend more money on coffee per day.

I don’t want you to think we aren’t listening, as we certainly are, and the moderators make sure that folks like Bruce and Jeffro hear the comments. But remember, this is a new program and it will take some getting used to.

We know that the proof lies with Avid and you do have a choice. If you don’t think you want the upgrade, then just stay where you are on your existing version. Most people are taking advantage and using this year as the proof point to see if we deliver. I know we will but you need to feel that as well in order to open your wallets. I can tell you that I know that a lot of users traditionally do just that, they like the version they are using and don't want to upgrade. That's fine. If you want to wait and see if Avid provides updates this year, then wait, if your still not satisfied with the updates then don’t renew next year and you still can use your existing version forever.

If you decide after Dec 31st that you did want to upgrade, there are other options for you around subscription to get you back on the latest version. Those options are as low as a monthly payment of $30. If you look at the economics (I’ll use the PT $199 plan here), you’ll get upgrades for $199 for a full year, and if you continue for 2 years that would be $398 to receive all the upgrades for 2 upgrades. Plus…. Not to mention the Support component that comes with the plan. This annual plan provides all future Pro Tools updates, upgrades, and expert help for one year from the time of activation. That’s worth way more than $199!

We are planning a few releases a year and that can serve as a great upgrade path. In the end, its $199/year to get upgrades and support for Pro Tools Software,and we feel w priced this very fairly to ensure that everybody had access to getting the latest version no matter what product license you are using. This is about trying to ensure that Pro Tools can be accessible to everybody, it’s about making sure that we keep people on the latest version so that they have the best customer and product experience as possible.

Software companies are moving to models like this and if you haven’t already you will see more of this. For software development, its becoming impossible to manage years of users on years of old versions and outdated OS while trying to keep feature development going at a pace that customers expect. Commoditized professional products means that companies like and Avid, Autodesk or Adobe have to adapt with new business models to we can remain competitive and grow the business and provide you with the features and functionality and service you need to be successful.

I think in the end, if you step back and look at the options and what you get depending on which path you will take, the offering of choice(s) will be good for all of our customers . If you want you can check out how much the cost of ownership is over 3 and 5 years… that’s even a better deal.

Dave

Dave 98% of the UPDATES are bug fixes that is 1. Fault of the coders OR 2. Operating System changes such as OS X. 2% of the updates may be something the "crowd" wanted but that usually never happens.

So, Avid is really TWISTING our ARMS with this 199 per year fee.

Now that Pro Tools is now 64bit please tell us what kind of UPGRADES do you speak about. In all reality the only TRUE update I have seen is when Pro Tools went to 64bit, and the bounce to disk (which it took 11 releases to get this while Sonar has always had this) and to be honest that is it. You say in the long run the 199 will be cheaper. Please tell us how will it be cheaper when the next upgrade will not really affect PT editing or add instruments or adding a sample editor or something really new like us being able to change the GUID colors. No you want people to pay the 199 fee to help pay for the "cloud" which is NOT in itself part of Pro Tools editing.

Now, please tell us besides the "Cloud" what new "add-ons" will there be to Pro Tools besides GUI enhancements or bug fixes? I mean unless you add more instruments or really, really awesome new features I truly don't see paying the $199 per year feasible.

[guitardom]

Originally Posted by TLarvenz

You said:

These price changes didn't change overnight. This is demonstrably wrong. Upgrade Price 8-9 $349. 9-10, $999. The 7-8 upgrade was $249. A $100 jump is still reasonable. A $600 jump is unheard of.

"This change came when Pro Tools became open to "non" Avid interfaces." This is also demonstrably wrong. You could buy an Apogee in the 90's.

"It obviously required a change as why would they give the software away for 200$ and then have a person go spent 5k on another manufactures interface." This was not obvious nor even correct as you had to be an HD hardware owner at the time.

"But I cant blame them for raising the prices at version 9." The price jump was at 10.

Nothing you'd said was accurate yet I'm the backward one and somehow we're both right. Keep playing that tune guitar guy. I know people like you who are never wrong, no matter how wrong they are. Yes, I could have found a more non-combative way to tell you that you were wrong in the earlier post, but you were bashing someone else at the time and telling them that the prices have only gone down. You made claims about the products from 5 years ago. Now you claim how can someone remember every detail. You can't have it both ways. You make claims that I don't remember all the facts, which is true. But I do my homework. Maybe you should too before claiming all knowing authority without a shred of fact behind it.

No, someone was saying the support price for HD has not been released yet. I was pointing out in multiple different places it has been announced. You are mistaken. See, a non combative way to say you are wrong. That is a bit different as we are not dealing with something that happened 5 years ago.

You then attempted to give me a history lesson even though I was there, dealing with it, but unfortunately didn't remember everything. You obviously missed some of the other facts in your history lesson which I included for your records.

You may also remember avid has had a support plan in the past and you could of subscribed to it for 599$ during the PT 9 era and upgraded 9 to 10. I am sure you knew this, but wondering why you didn't bring it up?? So you should have have upgraded 9>10 for 599$ and many people are upgrading 10>11>12 for 599$. But if you mistakenly paid 1k for 9>10 then 599$ for 11>12 isn't to bad.

And for your interface statement, you are either mistaken or being stubborn. Yes you could use apogees (I was doing that in 2001) pre 9, but they had to be hooked up to an HD/Tdm card. Obviously the statement was about the ability to break free of the Avid hardware leash period and also did not need to have proof of a core card to update the software. Could also get an HD license through the cptk upgrade.

I apologize for being wrong and needing some time to remember all these things. Hopefully you can file this info I give you away as well and benefits you in the future when you feel like being a recent history teacher.

[rockridge]

The writing is on the wall.

I can't picture this new licensing scheme succeeding for the masses.

Avid might get the HD owners that are making money, but forget everyone else.

Maybe that's what they want...

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by rockridge

...I can't picture this new licensing scheme succeeding for the masses...

People want to ignore that they already tried appealing to the masses and practically went under.

I'd love new $1600 automobiles like we had in the '60s. There certainly hasn't been enough inflation to justify today's automobile prices but it is what it is. For many people leasing makes the most economic sense. I happily drive my 20 year old caddy.

[jpsexton]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I'd love new $1600 automobiles like we had in the '60s. There certainly hasn't been enough inflation to justify today's automobile prices but it is what it is. For many people leasing makes the most economic sense. I happily drive my 20 year old caddy.

Good analogy but imagine if the EPA said you have to update the emissions on that 20 year old caddy or your going to have to leave it parked. (Kinda like a new Apple OS)

So you call up you friendly Cadillac dealer to find out how much an emissions update is and he says "sorry, you can't buy that because we only do that kind of work for our lease customers", then he says "Would you like to talk to a salesman to purchase a new Cadillac?"

Sounds pretty silly huh?

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I'd love new $1600 automobiles like we had in the '60s. There certainly hasn't been enough inflation to justify today's automobile prices but it is what it is. For many people leasing makes the most economic sense. I happily drive my 20 year old caddy.

Inflation has nothing to do with this. Sadly, if current car prices are too high, it all comes down to that you have not got enough pay raises in 20 years.

Sorry.

You always buy what you need and use it when you need it. If you try to save that money and only buy it once you have that amount in savings, you will only lose that time when you needed to use the product, and at the time you have saved the money the product costs more and your target is further away.

[TLarvenz]

Originally Posted by guitardom

No, someone was saying the support price for HD has not been released yet. I was pointing out in multiple different places it has been announced. You are mistaken. See, a non combative way to say you are wrong. That is a bit different as we are not dealing with something that happened 5 years ago.

You then attempted to give me a history lesson even though I was there, dealing with it, but unfortunately didn't remember everything. You obviously missed some of the other facts in your history lesson which I included for your records.

You may also remember avid has had a support plan in the past and you could of subscribed to it for 599$ during the PT 9 era and upgraded 9 to 10. I am sure you knew this, but wondering why you didn't bring it up?? So you should have have upgraded 9>10 for 599$ and many people are upgrading 10>11>12 for 599$. But if you mistakenly paid 1k for 9>10 then 599$ for 11>12 isn't to bad.

And for your interface statement, you are either mistaken or being stubborn. Yes you could use apogees (I was doing that in 2001) pre 9, but they had to be hooked up to an HD/Tdm card. Obviously the statement was about the ability to break free of the Avid hardware leash period and also did not need to have proof of a core card to update the software. Could also get an HD license through the cptk upgrade.

I apologize for being wrong and needing some time to remember all these things. Hopefully you can file this info I give you away as well and benefits you in the future when you feel like being a recent history teacher.

There was nothing I said that was wrong. First, I never said that pricing for the new system had or hadn't been announced. I posted in response to you saying that the cost of HD upgrades has gone down since you started with PT5. Which it hasn't.

Further, the support plan of which you speak came about AFTER they announced the cost of the flat out upgrade, which many on the DUC vehemently protested. It was a disaster when they announced it and almost no one was saying anything good about the new pricing (nor the software which was terribly buggy by any standard). The "support" plan was a way for them to try to save face after a week of thrashing by their users. It was better accepted but still, there are to this day large numbers of users on legacy platforms because even that pricing was unacceptable. And now a monthly subscription plan? Yep, that showed up overnight. Prior to the day they announced it, it didn't exist. And frankly I have no idea what you're talking about with the interface thing. You could run third party interfaces for a decade before so (and you apparently did- how are you even defending this?), so no matter how you look at it, you are wrong on that. I never stated, implied or hinted that there was any other case in the matter. Maybe to you "interface" and "core card" are one and the same? Also, I'd love to see where you think that having the CPTK for PT 8 allowed you to upgrade to PT 9 HD. Search the DUC. You had to enter your HD card serial to purchase the PT 9 HD upgrade. You either misspoke(mistyped) or you were mistaken. Either way...

[profdraper]

I'm currently using PT 11 HD. I used to be a Pro Tools 9/10 + CPTK owner who took advantage of Avid's offering for owners like me to upgrade to Pro Tools 11 HD software-only option.

Exactly There is presently no delineation in price point between i) those who already own HD11 (native) having paid the v10+CPTK upgrade; and ii) those who are still sitting on HD10. Presently $599 for either scenario & which is unfair /inappropriate for long time customers.

Like many others, I would suggest something like $299 for the former, $599 for the latter & perhaps this indeed may well be re-considered before launch date. Once all are on PT12HD, then sure ... $599 for following years or similar.

Whichever, that particular move shall be a litmus test for me, i.e., if no acknowledgement of my existing ownership of HD11 (and decades-long user account history for that matter) I shall take the same approach & move on with complimentary non-acknowledegment of Avid. Clearly, there are now many 21st century DAWs which work rather well here & I would need an incentive to stay with Avid (as per above, 'thank you' to loyal customers or similar).