Serious midi timing issues;Eleven Rack PT8 help!

[ABS]

Right off the bat, any help is greatly appreciated. I'm sort of desperate here.

Just to throw this out there, I've been using the midi functions of PT since 5.x on Windows 98 so I'm very familiar with what to expect and how it all works generally. Other than the occasional quirks, it's always worked how it should work and I've never had a problem like this before. Also, I've worked for a long time with PT in general so I'm hoping I'm just missing something simple related to the newer software or something.

Here's the rundown.

Win XP 32; Latest drivers for an Eleven rack with the CS update for PT8.

All my midi devices go through an Edirol UM880 USB patchbay/interface.

Here's how it started; When playing back midi tracks, the timing was way off within the track itself. Now, we're not talking about a total early or late thing that can be adjusted with the offset, but the whole performance was off by an unusable margin. Ie. randomly the notes were early or late and it basically just sounded like a sloppy performance. Note, this is after quantizing so my midi notes are very clearly locked to grid. I tried different sound modules and monitoring directly from the module (so no audio throughput from PT). Essentially, the session consists of like 2 midi tracks with no audio/busses/monitors for testing purposes. It happens with all devices.

I started researching it, and to my surprise, saw someone mentioned something about the playback buffer. Not thinking it would do anything (since it shouldn't), sure enough I lower it to 128 samples and my midi is back on. Working on 128 samples is not an option for me, and I've never ever had any problems with midi on any PT interface or software at higher buffer settings. The scary thing is, it's randomly off by different margins at different buffer settings which makes me nervous that even at 128 samples I'm not really locked in properly.

After determining it's not related to any specific device, I bypass my USB midi interface and used the in/out on the Eleven rack. That right there seemed to resolve the midi timing for playback at higher buffer settings (with the exception of the highest buffer setting where it was horribly off). I made some new tracks and tested it all the way to 2056 samples and everything came out fine.

The problem now is, when I'm playing back a midi track while also recording midi, the notes playing back from the track are now on, however, the notes I'm playing in real time/recording are way way off. For example, in midi merge mode trying to overlay notes onto an existing track, the notes on the track play fine, but the notes going through to the midi track input then out to the module are off randomly by as much as eighth notes. Never had this problem before

This has always worked perfectly before. 0 problems, 0 timing issues. And again, this is not an offset issue, the notes are randomly off. The Eleven is a new addition so I'm suspecting that, however I came from an 003 prior to this but I've been pretty lazy about doing any recording the past year so I can't say for sure it wasn't happening with that either.

Bottom line is,

A. my USB midi interface is affected by the hardware buffer and is unusable beyond 128 samples. I highly doubt there is an issue with this as the drivers are up to date and it still works perfectly as a standalone patchbay.

B. Using the built in midi port on the Eleven, it plays back midi without issue, but the timing is randomly way off for recording midi while also playing back. This occurs in an empty session other than one midi track for testing.

Any help is beyond appreciated, as I'm at a loss as to what to do now.

[albee1952]

If you have a scenario that works MOST of the time(sounds like the case here), then I suspect maybe your midi keyboard is causing the random late notes. Is it always the same note(s)? Maybe a bad key trigger? What keyboard are you playing? BTW, it makes sense that PT compensates for the midi timing when using the on-board midi ports. Personally, I work at the 64 buffer setting 95% of the time. Maybe its time for a newer(and more powerful) computer? Also, have you checked with Edirol for newer drivers for that interface? 8.0.4 has some timing issues(with audio anyway) and cs2 helped most(but a session at 48K still has too much offset). If you are working at 48K, try 44.1 on a project and see if it gets any better.

[ABS]

Thanks for the reply

I updated the drivers for the Edirol but again, bypassing it altogether still leaves me with significant timing issues on the input side.

As for the keyboard, I've tried multiple input devices as well as modules with the same result so it's definitely not related to any specific outboard piece of gear.

And I'm not trying to do something I'm not familiar with etc. Prior to this issue, my midi setup worked perfect, every time all the time. Doesn't matter if it was the 003, or 001, or an mbox, etc. I've used extensive midi options in PT for literally 10 years with no issue and this is about the most basic thing I can do (one midi track plays, while you're recording another midi track; midi omni single channel nice and easy).

And it's only messed up when the project is playing back which is really odd.

So if a midi track is record enabled and the project is not playing back, my midi input is real time and timing is perfect. When the track plays back, it's also perfect. However, when a single midi track is playing back, my midi input is sticky and unusable. And again, that's just one track and one overlay. When everything is working properly, I can have like 100 midi tracks playing back and my input is always perfect.

I'm going nuts here

Fresh PT install, newest firmware, newest drivers.

I hate to say it, but the only thing I can think of next is to wipe Windows...

What could I possibly be missing?

[ABS]

So,

Wiped Windows XP, upgraded to Win 7, fresh install which went perfectly.

Everything works great EXCEPT the damn midi tracks. Same exact issue:

-When the project is stopped, midi input is spot on and I can play in real time no sweat

-When any recorded midi tracks play back, they play perfectly.

-When I play anything over a midi track playing back, it randomly screws up the live midi throughput and delays/cuts off what I'm playing.

It does it with every combination of gear I try, it is without a doubt something in PT.

I'm always hesitant to jump to this conclusion, but possibly something just wrong with the Eleven?

[lheagle]

Don't waste your time upgrading or downgrading, I have the same problem, I didn't changed anything on my set up.
So I did check on another software and I had no problem on Cubase.
So there's a problem with Avid Audio.

[ABS]

It's good to know I'm not the only one, but it doesn't change how unmanageable this is.

Playing one midi track back, while recording another one is like the most basic it gets. It's technology that was perfected 20 years ago....

I wiped win 7 and went back to XP with the original PT8 disc and it's the same result.

Just for the sake of it, I'm going to load my USB midi drivers on my laptop system with M powered PT and see if it works there.

[ABS]

Loaded my full midi rig on the laptop running PT7 M powered, and it works perfectly.............................

So, is it a PT8 thing?? Is it just related to the Eleven rack?? Are people experiencing this with Macs or 003s?

Because right now I'm basically boned. I really can't do anything serious on my main rig.

So basically, my M Audio USB transit on a Vaio kicks the crap out of my dedicated system with the fancy new Eleven rack.

Nice.

[ABS]

Just wanted to update the situation for anyone searhing for this issue:

Regarding my Eleven Rack, after many reloads of Windows XP/7, different versions of PT8, the midi timing from my midi rig which works with other systems I have, is still unreliable and tied somehow to the playback buffer. From what I've read (but haven't tried myself), PT9 doesn't fix this.

I did a lot of research and decided to load a fresh Win 7 install, load all the updated drivers/software for PT 8, and to buy Cubase.

Amazingly, the ASIO drivers for the Eleven Rack somehow work even better in Cubase than they do in PT. All of the virtual inputs (GTR processed, line input, digital, unprocessed) show up pre labeled after assigning the driver. Midi timing, hardware input, everything works great and is back to how it used to work with my 003 and older versions of PT.

The only thing I lose is the GUI software editing of the 11R presets as that feature is PT only. Other than that it works flawlessly within Cubase so far.

So pains me to say it as I'm PT all the way, but for anyone experiencing unnacceptable midi timing issues and are working professionally, or semi professionally (as in it just needs to work period), then the 11R with Cubase is a legite option.