Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Pro Tools Software > AAX Plug-ins

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #541  
Old 01-28-2013, 09:40 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: England
Posts: 1,707
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave911 View Post
Not to try to play peacemaker, because I do love HUGE capital letters but the problem is these two companies are fighting over a pie and the customers are getting it in the face.

The emotion mixer and interface issues with PT are there because Avid and Waves couldn't agree to create some interface standards and then compete on whose products are best.
Impossible to say whose fault it is but it looks to me like Avid is determined to create closed systems.
You don't need a closed system to have tight integration, you just need adults who can move the industry forward.


Waves does need more low-latency plugs, but some math functions can only be done on a certain number of samples.
Low latency does not indicate a better plugin.
Indeed.... I think both companies have dug their heels in to the detriment of their customers although I do believe Waves' claim Avid have made it practically impossible to move to HDX by changing DSP cores.

We're all loosing out here, even those who have no interest in Waves. Avid has lost it's number one PI developer for it's flagship platform. I can understand the likes of Digico and Soundtracs wanting a foot in the door of the DAW market in partnership with Waves.... But it seems to me their main focus is going to be the Apogee Symphony market with the option to patch into Pro Tools via http://www.digigrid.net/portfolio/dli/ It is clearly evident that is NOT the solution PT users wanted.

Let me know if you want me to edit this post so it's in Huge capitals.
__________________
Dave Marsden
UK
Avid HDX1, PT12 HD, HD I/O 16x16, Avid S6 M10 24-5, 2013 12 Core Mac Pro. Robby The Robot meter bridge ornament.
  #542  
Old 01-28-2013, 10:34 AM
sunburst79 sunburst79 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA
Posts: 12,763
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

Playing the devils advocate somewhat here. So who wins here? Live digital console owners. They get the ability to run plugs they couldn't before and add some hardware I/O. Waves wins because they sell a plugin bunde and Servers and some ancillary hardware. Other than that I'm not seeing this as being attractive anyone in the recording field unless they are locked into obsolete hardware like a PPC Mac that's underpowered.

I'm not seeing a Soundgrid server system offering anything that adding a second processor or upgrading your computer a generation or two would achieve. Or for that matter switching DAWs and plugin formats. EG switching from RTAS plugs and VI's to VST or AU. We are all aware of plug in counts in Logic and other DAWs vs Pro Tools

They almost certainly DO have all the IP in place for a active switching matrix or router if they cared to add a active patch bay. Being able to add racks worth of hardware to the equation would make sense and as Bob Ohlsson pointed out be great in larger facilities.

Latency. Years ago when Apple switched to Intel there were a couple discussions here regarding using a real time patched linux distribution that would install on Mac or PC hardware and end the endless rounds of updates to stay compatible with changing OS's. While not probably practical from a codec licensing standpoint for Post users I'm going to guess that the super low latency figures they are achieving are due to a purpose built operating system. Apparently the idea has some merit.
__________________
Scott

Formerly Hobo Wan Kenobi

Core 2 Specs Page

ASUS P6T6 Revolution | i7 930 | 12GB OCZ DDR3 1600 7-7-7-20 | PTLE 10 | CPTK | 003 | Presonus D8 | 11Rack | Alesis AI3 | Presonus HP60 | Mercury + Studio Classics | Sound Toys | MasseyPack | Axiom61 | MAudio Keystation Pro 88
  #543  
Old 01-28-2013, 10:39 AM
sunburst79 sunburst79 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA
Posts: 12,763
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

As an added bonus everyone can dump there TDM assets on the market in a spoiler move. Since their unlikely to update them for free there's not much point in hanging on to them.
__________________
Scott

Formerly Hobo Wan Kenobi

Core 2 Specs Page

ASUS P6T6 Revolution | i7 930 | 12GB OCZ DDR3 1600 7-7-7-20 | PTLE 10 | CPTK | 003 | Presonus D8 | 11Rack | Alesis AI3 | Presonus HP60 | Mercury + Studio Classics | Sound Toys | MasseyPack | Axiom61 | MAudio Keystation Pro 88
  #544  
Old 01-28-2013, 10:45 AM
Emcha_audio's Avatar
Emcha_audio Emcha_audio is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Montréal, canada
Posts: 6,382
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Toolbox View Post
This is actually the first marketing speak I've heard that makes this box seem like it might make sense....

But in reality, this box will NOT replace an HD card for two extremely important reasons:

1. It doesn't support any plugins except WAVES. Even if they do allow 3rd party plugins, it's not likely that very many other developers will bother to port to this format.
2. It has another layer of routing and mixing that is not only confusing, but also removes your ability to be compatible with other pro tools studios.

Everything about this box, with the exception of the advertised low latency is based on old ideas that from what I've seen, most people have been trying to get away from:

1. External Digital console with built in effects: Back when there were limitations in track count/voice count, it was cheaper to get a digital console instead of buying more farm cards. This was a lot more common 10 years ago, but most people would prefer to have a control surface, and keep everything in their pro tools session.

2. Slave PCs: Slave PC's will always have a place with composers for hosting large VI templates, but are a lot less appealing for mixing with plugins. Why? Because a VI slave is generally set up once, then just booted up and used like a sound module as part of a template. The idea is to have all of your goto ionstruments loaded and ready to play, not to have a workstation where you tweak their parameters. Basically anything that has tweaking, needs to be tweaking in your main DAW for a slave system to make sense, so things like EQs compressors, etc. which usually aren't automated, but set to static setting throughout the mix are going to be problematic. If I tweak 6 knobs on an EQ on a soundgrid template, I am not interested in writing automation for that. I just want save my Pro Tools session and have it remember what I set for the next time I opened it. Otherwise session recall becomes very confusing.

There is also a newer idea that's an element of digigrid: using a network for audio. While convenient and theoretically cheaper than using physical I/O, this can be extremely time consuming to troubleshoot if there are problems with the network. I have seen some people spend more money trying to get VE pro working than what they would have if they just bought some cheap digital audio interfaces. So that's another thing that hasn't been answered yet... how good is the support for this going to be if there are network problems?
indeed
__________________
Manny.
  #545  
Old 01-28-2013, 10:50 AM
John_Toolbox's Avatar
John_Toolbox John_Toolbox is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,351
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunburst79 View Post
Playing the devils advocate somewhat here. So who wins here? Live digital console owners. They get the ability to run plugs they couldn't before and add some hardware I/O. Waves wins because they sell a plugin bunde and Servers and some ancillary hardware. Other than that I'm not seeing this as being attractive anyone in the recording field unless they are locked into obsolete hardware like a PPC Mac that's underpowered.

I'm not seeing a Soundgrid server system offering anything that adding a second processor or upgrading your computer a generation or two would achieve. Or for that matter switching DAWs and plugin formats. EG switching from RTAS plugs and VI's to VST or AU. We are all aware of plug in counts in Logic and other DAWs vs Pro Tools

They almost certainly DO have all the IP in place for a active switching matrix or router if they cared to add a active patch bay. Being able to add racks worth of hardware to the equation would make sense and as Bob Ohlsson pointed out be great in larger facilities.

Latency. Years ago when Apple switched to Intel there were a couple discussions here regarding using a real time patched linux distribution that would install on Mac or PC hardware and end the endless rounds of updates to stay compatible with changing OS's. While not probably practical from a codec licensing standpoint for Post users I'm going to guess that the super low latency figures they are achieving are due to a purpose built operating system. Apparently the idea has some merit.
I'm not familiar enough with them to know the latency specs, but the Muse Receptor is something that has been around a long time, using a purpose built linux OS with PC hardware to host plugins/VIs. It's also noteworthy that last time I checked, the receptors were about half the price of what the waves box costs. Not sure how the receptor handles plugins, if you can load any VST on it or if they need to be built specifically for it.
__________________
- John

If a MIDI event triggers a sample of a tree falling and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
  #546  
Old 01-28-2013, 10:51 AM
Emcha_audio's Avatar
Emcha_audio Emcha_audio is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Montréal, canada
Posts: 6,382
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
Indeed.... I think both companies have dug their heels in to the detriment of their customers although I do believe Waves' claim Avid have made it practically impossible to move to HDX by changing DSP cores.
Well apparently that's not the case since someone in this thread.. or the other.. getting hard to keep track, stated that a rep at the namm show agreed that after the learning curve it would be down to 10 man years and if forced to (as in well if our system doesn't pan out) they'll have to do HDX dsp, that's contradicting your source, but since no one else, but the poster, here was there when that was being said, it's to be taken with a heavy grain of salt like your statement.
__________________
Manny.
  #547  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:06 AM
sunburst79 sunburst79 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA
Posts: 12,763
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Toolbox View Post
I'm not familiar enough with them to know the latency specs, but the Muse Receptor is something that has been around a long time, using a purpose built linux OS with PC hardware to host plugins/VIs. It's also noteworthy that last time I checked, the receptors were about half the price of what the waves box costs. Not sure how the receptor handles plugins, if you can load any VST on it or if they need to be built specifically for it.
I forgot about the MUSE. Worth checking into.

We need HOBOserve.
__________________
Scott

Formerly Hobo Wan Kenobi

Core 2 Specs Page

ASUS P6T6 Revolution | i7 930 | 12GB OCZ DDR3 1600 7-7-7-20 | PTLE 10 | CPTK | 003 | Presonus D8 | 11Rack | Alesis AI3 | Presonus HP60 | Mercury + Studio Classics | Sound Toys | MasseyPack | Axiom61 | MAudio Keystation Pro 88
  #548  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:18 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Soprano State (NJ)
Posts: 16,662
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
Indeed.... I think both companies have dug their heels in to the detriment of their customers although I do believe Waves' claim Avid have made it practically impossible to move to HDX by changing DSP cores.

We're all loosing out here, even those who have no interest in Waves. Avid has lost it's number one PI developer for it's flagship platform. I can understand the likes of Digico and Soundtracs wanting a foot in the door of the DAW market in partnership with Waves.... But it seems to me their main focus is going to be the Apogee Symphony market with the option to patch into Pro Tools via http://www.digigrid.net/portfolio/dli/ It is clearly evident that is NOT the solution PT users wanted.

Let me know if you want me to edit this post so it's in Huge capitals.
Don't know why Apogee Symphony gets dragged into this - it has nothing to do with the subject at hand other than it's just another ad/da converter just like Aurora. No dsp in it and they both can take the place of Avid ad/da boxes.
__________________
Jack
See profile for system details
iMac dead & retired as of 11/4/17

QAPLA!
  #549  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:32 AM
sunburst79 sunburst79 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA
Posts: 12,763
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Don't know why Apogee Symphony gets dragged into this - it has nothing to do with the subject at hand other than it's just another ad/da converter just like Aurora. No dsp in it and they both can take the place of Avid ad/da boxes.
I'm wondering if that was meant to be UA Apollo.
__________________
Scott

Formerly Hobo Wan Kenobi

Core 2 Specs Page

ASUS P6T6 Revolution | i7 930 | 12GB OCZ DDR3 1600 7-7-7-20 | PTLE 10 | CPTK | 003 | Presonus D8 | 11Rack | Alesis AI3 | Presonus HP60 | Mercury + Studio Classics | Sound Toys | MasseyPack | Axiom61 | MAudio Keystation Pro 88
  #550  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:38 AM
nst7 nst7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 9,775
Default Re: Waves AAX DSP New

When people are talking about Symphony, they're probably talking about the Symphony PCIe card system, not the Symphony IO audio interface.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
audio and waves don't match sierra2010 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 2 10-28-2008 09:02 AM
Waves IR-L stops passing audio??? SHIRK Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 3 08-30-2006 09:02 PM
Has anyone bought a PC from "Digital Audio Waves" jadedstate 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 0 06-24-2005 09:38 PM
Waves Audio Processing Accelerators scotsman Pro Tools TDM Systems (Mac) 12 06-10-2005 01:08 AM
002 Core Audio Driver & Waves for OSX Musepro 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 2 09-08-2003 12:14 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:50 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com