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  #11  
Old 07-06-2003, 06:35 PM
s2n s2n is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

I found this post on the auto-delay compensation of RTAS vs TDM topic:

Quote:
Originally posted by DigiTechSupt:
It's easy to test for your self...

Create an audio track put some audio on it.

Duplicate that track.

Put an RTAS plugin that has a Phase reversal switch in it on one track. I used Digirack 1 band, 4 band, McDSP Analog Channel and a couple of others (not at the same time) they all worked the same.

As you playback both tracks, switch the phase reversal switch on and off. If both tracks are perfectly aligned, which they should be, the audio will disappear when one is out of phase with the other.

Any delay incurred by RTAS plugins is compensated for by Pro Tools automatically.

Jon Connolly
Digidesign Product Specialist
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess the G5 will be a threat to TDM. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]
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  #12  
Old 07-06-2003, 10:07 PM
mpr3 mpr3 is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

Quote:
Originally posted by DigiTechSupt:
Any delay incurred by RTAS plugins is compensated for by Pro Tools automatically.

Jon Connolly
Digidesign Product Specialist
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok so Pro Tools auto-compensates RTAS plugin delay only, and not TDM..

However, when over-dubbing audio into a Pro Tools project that uses a hefty ammount of RTAS plugins will the newly recorded tracks be time aligned (according to what the musician hears) with the original mix? Afterall, inorder for the RTAS tracks to start earlier for compensation, the non-RTAS track must be delayed.

My guess is that most people are not tracking with any RTAS plugins in their project at all. Instead, applying them during mixing only?
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  #13  
Old 07-07-2003, 07:07 AM
AE AE is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

Quote:
Originally posted by dmazurek:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AE:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mpr3:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I use RTAS on drums (or anywhere I'm worried about phase relationships since they have no delay) and TDM everywhere else.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a typo right? Native DSP will always have latency and it will vary according to the buffer setting. I am new to PT, can someone clarify this for me?

Thanks,
Mark
<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what he's talking about. I don't know if he does, either.
<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">email your apology to........ [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [/QB]<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I may have to.

I was very much under the impression that there is NO delay compensation, whether you're talking about LE or TDM. I was also under the impression that RTAS plugs often -- but not always -- induce no delay, so in many cases this would not be an issue. But most importantly, I was under the impression that some RTAS plugs -- like those that have a lookahead function -- DO induce delay, and that this delay is not compensated for. If this is true, then you have to be careful with RTAS just like with TDM, but if you stick with non delay-inducing plugs you'll be fine.

If this is all wrong, my whole world is in disarray! Core beliefs are shattered! And I will happily be apologizing, since this would indeed make life much easier when mixing live drum tracks.

Hey, Digi tech experts, could you clear this up? And while you're at it, update any inaccurate documentation?
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  #14  
Old 07-07-2003, 10:05 AM
majortracks2 majortracks2 is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

Hey
Once you setup all those lovely RTAS Sony eq's try hitting play and watch your CPU meter......
OUCH!
The meter does not go into effect until play is
activated.

MT2
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  #15  
Old 07-07-2003, 04:06 PM
Chris Townsend Chris Townsend is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

You guys almost have this figured out, but not quite. Hopefully I can clear things up. For plug-ins that don’t add any algorithmic delay RTAS adds zero samples of delay per plug-in and TDM adds 2-5 samples. Now the algorithms of many plug-ins inherently add delay, such as a look ahead compressor. In this case the algorithmic delay will be added to the base TDM or RTAS delay. Technically there is no delay compensation for either RTAS or TDM plug-ins, but in the case of RTAS some plug-ins have zero delay and therefore will not need to be compensated.
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  #16  
Old 07-07-2003, 04:32 PM
mpayne mpayne is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

Quote:
RTAS some plug-ins have zero delay
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how is this physically possible?
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  #17  
Old 07-07-2003, 05:23 PM
crowdog crowdog is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

I've been using PTle for the last 3 yrs, so I have some experience with RTAS - and if I submix, for instance, the drum group to 2 tracks then heavily compress with Ren Comp and add it back under the original drum tracks I get massive phase incoherency. If I command-click the volume the # of samples delayed is 66, if I time adjust the submixed 2-track forward by 66 samples it's back in phase. My understanding is that RTAS has smaller plug-in latency than TDM, but still has some and that protools (LE anyway) does not automatically compensate for it. Although there are some plugs that have only 1 or 2 samples of delay.

Now this is on PTLE 5.2.1 and OS 9.2.2, maybe it's different in the OSX version and maybe it's implemented differently in the TDM versions of the software - so I hope I'm not clouding the issue. Although if it's only in the OSX/6.1 release, auto-compensation would be a great incentive for me to update to 6.1, despite the pack of people pulling their hair out with 6.01 so far.
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  #18  
Old 07-07-2003, 05:32 PM
crowdog crowdog is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

Ah, I see Chris Townsend has stopped by and set the record straight while I was composing my earth-shattering revelation ....... thanks Chris.
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  #19  
Old 07-07-2003, 08:43 PM
mpr3 mpr3 is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

What seems tricky and confusing is that TDM and RTAS processes have a PCI bus inbetween eachother. Moving audio from the PCI bus to the CPU/memory and back always incurs latency. I wonder how in the world they are getting no RTAS latency when all the audio is supposedly being mixed onboard the TDM hardware and not the CPU?
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  #20  
Old 07-07-2003, 08:56 PM
s2n s2n is offline
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Default Re: Sony Oxford RTAS vs TDM

I wish all of this was clearly written out in the manual.
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