Best way to handle Punch In (PT 12)

[heysimo]

Originally Posted by john1192

hi Heysimo, 1st off you Quoted me instead of the guy that advised you read the manual .. right !!! yes ..

and you said there is nothing in the manual regarding this situation .. right !!

2nd, My Post that you did quote above, was how you are speaking to people that are trying to understand your workflow and ideas for a better workflow .. you are not being nice, and hence people are not going to be of help .. does not work that way .. right !!! Yes .. would you speak to us face to face like that .. probably not, right !!!

so Respectfully, lets enjoy this conversation please .. !!!

this could be a language thing - which can happen .. but there are some contradictions that i will point out to try and Clarify what WE are Reading ..

now to try and help again .. for Clarity ..

1) "half song recorded; we have to punch in to record the second half; they need to hear the recorded and themselves at the same time"

2) "When I arm a track, I don't want anything to come out of Pro Tools, cause I am listening through the board"

#1 says you need to hear the recorded and themselves
#2 says you do not want anything to come out of Pro Tools, you wish to hear through your console ..

see the confusion that we are Reading ???

so you MIGHT just have to reword your Workflow so we understand a little better, if you are not getting the answers or ideas that you would like ..

make sense ???

"If not interested, just don't reply!" of course i would not Reply if NOt interested .. if i was not interested i would not have replied with my Quoted Comments .. to help you get some help by being a little nicer to people .. again face to face i highly doubt you would speak to anyone like this that you thought might give them some help ..

peace as well to you ..

cheers john

Hi John,

sorry about the wrong quote.
Yes, I understand what you don't get .. I will try to clarify.

When I say "I don't want anything to come out of Pro Tools" I say it ONLY regarding the monitoring aspect! Of course, everything that is already recorded should be heard!
Basically, while tracking with an external monitoring system, the DAW, PT in this case, becomes just like a playback machine .. recording but not monitoring.
Does it make sense?
Doesn't everybody who doesn't have a HD system work this way?

John, I don't mean to offend anybody and not even go on with the argue .. But I am the one who was disrespected in the first place.
Quoting myself or just suggesting to read the manual .. That is making a fool of someone.
Let's just talk music .. Plus, how in the world could I ever possibly imagine the very same person would have replied on two different world wide partecipated forums ???

Best

SS

[john1192]

Originally Posted by heysimo

Hi John,

sorry about the wrong quote.
Yes, I understand what you don't get .. I will try to clarify.

When I say "I don't want anything to come out of Pro Tools" I say it ONLY regarding the monitoring aspect! Of course, everything that is already recorded should be heard!
Basically, while tracking with an external monitoring system, the DAW, PT in this case, becomes just like a playback machine .. recording but not monitoring.
Does it make sense?
Doesn't everybody who doesn't have a HD system work this way?

John, I don't mean to offend anybody and not even go on with the argue .. But I am the one who was disrespected in the first place.
Quoting myself or just suggesting to read the manual .. That is making a fool of someone.
Let's just talk music .. Plus, how in the world could I ever possibly imagine the very same person would have replied on two different world wide partecipated forums ???

Best

SS

hi, 1st the main theme of your thread .. to say on Topic ..

i am starting to understand .. thx for the clarity .. this might be a limitation of Pro Tools Non-HD and the way it handles Tape Machine Like Behavior ..

Hearing what is "On Tape" (pro tools) and then punching in .. you are correct that HD handles this a different way .. where you can Track through plugins and hear with Lower Latency .. as a musician, i like hearing through some sort of console as well !!!!

Non-HD pro tools is a different beast for sure .. it is about workArounds unless someone else has more ideas ..

1) could you setup either a Mute Group in Pro Tools or on the console so that when you get to the punch you Mute the Pro TOols PLayback in the Bands Cans (headphones) .. this way they hear the LAst Pass and then they just hear the Console Monitoring After the Punch .. if there is a Click they need to hear that would just need to be a separate output of PT so it does not get muted ..

Hence the suggestion to have a mono or stereo track being recorded along with the Isolated Tracks (the bands separate tracks) like a Temp type mix, so that you when you get to the punch there is NOthing After it to come out of Pro Tools .. you just Cut / Mute whatever comes after your punch point .. I have had to do this with Punches on NON-HD system .. become the Engineers duty ..

unlike a Tape Machine that is Linear and off the Record HEad no Latency .. these DAW's are a pain in the ass not having this capability .. so the above workarounds of either the Engineer Muting the tracks you do not wish to hear after the Punch or creating the Dummy mono or Stereo track Cut Off at that Punch Point ..

sorry, i think i am repeating myself now .. !!!

as far as the Manual comment .. i do not think it was meant as an insult by the poster .. most people come here with No Knowledge and No Desire to Crack Open the Manual and look for themsleves .. they just come here and expect and answer right away .. like we are their manual .. we are all faceless persons that do not know each other or the level of general audio knowledge or DAW's .. and most you will find have never had their hands on a real console before .. but their are some old dogs like me here !!!

but we see that you have done some homework ... it is very difficult to KNow what some has Done to help themsleves before they come here .. so it is actaully a Valid thing to request .. and he did not say RTFM (which to me is an insult if not worded properly and with sensitivity) ... wink wink !!!!

ok, and as far as the same person .. most of us have the same name in both forums .. i happen to have to slightly different ones ... jwh1192 & john1192 .. but yes, how would you truly know .. i was just mentioning that you WILL find a lot of the same persons in both .. All Good !!!!

cheers john

[dr_daw]

Originally Posted by john1192

hi, 1st the main theme of your thread .. to say on Topic ..



i am starting to understand .. thx for the clarity .. this might be a limitation of Pro Tools Non-HD and the way it handles Tape Machine Like Behavior ..



Hearing what is "On Tape" (pro tools) and then punching in .. you are correct that HD handles this a different way .. where you can Track through plugins and hear with Lower Latency .. as a musician, i like hearing through some sort of console as well !!!!



Non-HD pro tools is a different beast for sure .. it is about workArounds unless someone else has more ideas ..



1) could you setup either a Mute Group in Pro Tools or on the console so that when you get to the punch you Mute the Pro TOols PLayback in the Bands Cans (headphones) .. this way they hear the LAst Pass and then they just hear the Console Monitoring After the Punch .. if there is a Click they need to hear that would just need to be a separate output of PT so it does not get muted ..



Hence the suggestion to have a mono or stereo track being recorded along with the Isolated Tracks (the bands separate tracks) like a Temp type mix, so that you when you get to the punch there is NOthing After it to come out of Pro Tools .. you just Cut / Mute whatever comes after your punch point .. I have had to do this with Punches on NON-HD system .. become the Engineers duty ..



unlike a Tape Machine that is Linear and off the Record HEad no Latency .. these DAW's are a pain in the ass not having this capability .. so the above workarounds of either the Engineer Muting the tracks you do not wish to hear after the Punch or creating the Dummy mono or Stereo track Cut Off at that Punch Point ..



sorry, i think i am repeating myself now .. !!!



as far as the Manual comment .. i do not think it was meant as an insult by the poster .. most people come here with No Knowledge and No Desire to Crack Open the Manual and look for themsleves .. they just come here and expect and answer right away .. like we are their manual .. we are all faceless persons that do not know each other or the level of general audio knowledge or DAW's .. and most you will find have never had their hands on a real console before .. but their are some old dogs like me here !!!



but we see that you have done some homework ... it is very difficult to KNow what some has Done to help themsleves before they come here .. so it is actaully a Valid thing to request .. and he did not say RTFM (which to me is an insult if not worded properly and with sensitivity) ... wink wink !!!!



ok, and as far as the same person .. most of us have the same name in both forums .. i happen to have to slightly different ones ... jwh1192 & john1192 .. but yes, how would you truly know .. i was just mentioning that you WILL find a lot of the same persons in both .. All Good !!!!



cheers john

I will chime back in at this point.

Had I had the same information that has now become more clear; I would've suggested mute groups. This is how I do it. However, it is possible to use input monitoring (I don't even bother with the low latency feature). The only thing is, as I originally mentioned, you can't have the recording tracks running through any busses except the main out, and every insert or effect assigned will create latency. OP you are correct with my above mentioned way, the musician would not be able to hear themselves live ,aside from live bleed into their cans, until you punch in.

I don't like this workflow, so I do what I think you're looking to solve. I monitor live instruments through Focusrites Mix Control. I set up a mix group for the tracks (in Daw) I wish to track to including the mutes. This enables the use of a quick key to mute the tracks at the punch. It's a quick thing that needs to happen in three stages on the fly prior to the punch.
1 - quick key arm all the tracks required (shift-alt-click 'R'
2- Punch (f12)
3- Shift-M to mute

Personally, I just tell the performer that there will be a brief moment that things will sound funny. I've never had a performer complain. The other option is to skip the quick arm, and explain the latency leading up to the punch. That's the nature of monitoring through the front end.

This isn't a new thing as I feel you're aware.

The one thing I'm not clear about is the style of music you're recording that requires a full band punch?

I'm not sure of your workflow, but for myself unless a band ABSOLUTELY insists on all tracking together I only try to capture the rhythm section as a keeper track. I'll set the rest of the band up in a way that makes it easy to overdub their parts with little or no bleed into the rhythm tracks. This is mainly due to the fact that I record in a small space where isolation isn't entirely possible. When I was working in a larger facility, I more than often employed the same technique but would have isolation. So, sometimes I could use the original takes without overdubs. Eitherway, the focus was always on capturing the drums and bass mainly as tight as possible, unless the guitar was more important.

I then do multiple takes of the entire song taking notes on each part of the song. When it's done, I comp the best takes Of the entire band. Then overdub the other parts/mistakes as require.

In the tape days (and actually still to this day), I was never scared to save the band money by telling them they needed to go home and practice if they couldn't make it through the song without multiple mistakes. In the end, they were always happier with the result. The thing I always say, 'Garbage in, Garbage out' and 'You can't polish a turd'

As for my insulting response; I only speak to others in the way I'm spoken to. That's what my mother always taught me. I didn't offer my initial thoughts to be insulted the way you did. God knows why I'm even offering more assistance; but I guess I'm just that kind of guy...respectful, understanding, and enjoy helping others. This sometimes also teaches me something new whether it be technically or socially. That's the point of these forums.

Cheers, and I hope I more clearly understand what you're trying to achieve.

WG

[Tiboy]

i am using an UAD Apollo. I really don't get what you are talking, to be honest
i my case, with the UAD Software, the monitoring (if you want to) is done BEFORE the DAW. sure you have to set up a hp mix in PT to let the musicians hear the recorded tracks. Stay in LLM, so when you hit record, the sends get muted and the extremal software starts to do the monitoring .... That's the point of the LLM, to mute the sends when you hit record, so you don't have a doubled signal. playback recorded tracks works in LLM with my UAD Console, send them to the cue outputs and it works. I am doing voiceovers with punch in all the time.


ot am i understanding something wrong here?

[albee1952]

A few things to consider:
#1-Low Latency Monitoring, while being a handy tool for a last-minute punch-in on a session that is almost mixed(IOW, has lots and lots of plugins with lots of latency), its not a good way to handle general tracking of bands(you already see that it disables sends and plugins on record-enabled tracks).
#2-while tracking, its best to use a low buffer(64 or 128) and keep any high-latency plugins inactive as this keeps delay at a minimum in headphones.
#3-Input-Only monitoring(the green button) is a great way to rehearse a part, but you are going to want that to be OFF when it comes time to actually punch in and record.
#4-since the above is designed around monitoring from Pro Tools, using the UA "system" changes a lot of stuff(not avid's fault) so I recommend some time on the UA site and on youtube, watching some tutorials

[YYR123]

Originally Posted by heysimo

When I say "I don't want anything to come out of Pro Tools" I say it ONLY regarding the monitoring aspect! Of course, everything that is already recorded should be heard!

Basically, while tracking with an external monitoring system, the DAW, PT in this case, becomes just like a playback machine .. recording but not monitoring.

Does it make sense?

Doesn't everybody who doesn't have a HD system work this way?

Can't you split the Recording/Playback faders in prefs?

It sounds like this is what you want.

Playback as a cue, then Record fader lowered b/c you don't want to monitor via PT.

Or heck you could simply automate the master fader to drop to infinity at your punch in point.

[Ben Jenssen]

Originally Posted by YYR123

Can't you split the Recording/Playback faders in prefs?

It sounds like this is what you want.

It's in the options menu (at least in PT10 where I'm still at), and called "Link/unlink rec/play faders". Very useful for outboard monitoring. Not for punching in, though, as the faders switch positions as you rec enable/disable tracks.

[pete.j]

Gentlemen,

a lot went wrong here. My english my not be the best, but I also always try to keep pc.

But here where some basic wrong understandings between PT HD and Native.

Pro Tools Native - as it suffered by principle from higher latency - came up with Low Latency Monitoring first with the Digi002 and M-Boxes. What it did was, to mute all tracks that where:

- routed to outputs 1-2
- record enabled and PT was in Record

As long as PT in Playback one could hear the recorded material on an recorded track and therefore it was possible to punch in as in the old days with a tape machine or somewhat similar to PT HD.
Monitoring was done by an analog knob on DIGI002 or MBox, where you could monitor your signal you wanted to record pre DAW (PT).
Later (in PT 9 I think) Avid opened PT native to other hardware. They kept to concept of Low Latency Monitoring so one could do the same with other interfaces and their "mixers" as it has always been on all other (native) DAWs (like Nuendo, Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer, Sequoia just to name a few).

But for some reason this behavior doesn't seem to work anymore in PT12. They changed it without notice and the manual still says like it would behave like in former version, but it doesn't.
So it's kind of an Avid issue, because it's the only (native) DAW, where it's not possible (anymore) to use the widely common Monitoring concept for native DAWs.
Because this concept IS that common in native DAWs, every modern recorinding Interface has this feature for a LLM - mostly via a DSP-Mixer in the hardware (like RME, UAD Apollo, MOTU, Roland or whatever is your favorite interface).

So to come back to the initial Topic:

In PT12 the feature is gone - but I don't know by purpose or by accident. But it's not possible anymore do PunchIn on PT Native as it is with all other DAWs on the market.

Just to keep clear: I work in different studios and I am also a lecturer for Bachelor and Master of Arts and therefore do work with lot DAWs and use a lot PT HD and also use (for mobile Recording situations) PT Native (with UAD Apollo Interfaces) and I urgently miss the "old" feature in PT12 Native to do. punch in as I could do the last few years with PT9-PT11.
I love using PT but this su**s really!

Cheers Peter

[chrismeraz]

How do you guys handle a band punch in PT 12 Native?

I can't use LLM because I have to have some effects on while tracking (a couple of reverbs on Auxes).

I can't use MuteTones because I have a PC.

[chrismeraz]

Well, I found an easy way to do band punch with Console.

1. Duplicate all tracks
2. Record-arm the new tracks (don't forget to bring the recording fader all the way down on the new tracks, or you'll hear a doubled signal with the Console inputs)
3. Make your selection for the punch
4. Record!