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  #11  
Old 09-27-2019, 10:28 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

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Originally Posted by melodydetective View Post
Hi Dave -

Mind Control is a multi script, more or less - that’s what it does, except many conditions can be engaged, including legato playing styles, speed and so forth for switching... I think my issue may be that Kontakt really wants to have one Capsule (Berlin instrument) and not much more per instance. I was just wanting to avoid an insanely massive series of VEPro instances with fifty instances of Kontakt within. And I have just tried the same thing in Cubase with the same result - and it didn’t happen when I used Mind Control to drive 8Dio Adagio before. I really, really wish Capsule worked more like the Spitfire stuff does - I would like to be able to use a script to not pass note data unless a cc was at a certain value, but to allow all cc’s, so all of these Kontakt instances could chase the same dynamics.
I think I’ve understood! I see Mind Control is a Multi Scipt used to switch articulations within a Kontakt Instrument Bank in various clever ways and what you’re trying to do is have multiple Instrument Banks per Kontakt instance each on a different MIDI channel? In that case you not only assign conditions to select an Instrument Bank slot with a MIDI controller but also the MIDI channel of the Instrument Bank you want to address?

I see why you would want to do that but man, it’s asking a lot IMO, fiddly to set up and assumes there are no conflicts between a third party Multi Script and any individual instrument’s scripting. Plus there’s a risk that future Kontakt updates break Mind Control. Personally I’ve given up on third party Instrument Scripts in the past because they broke too often. Too many potential workflow breakers here!

If it were me, I’d bite the bullet and set up an instance of Kontakt per instrument, i.e. one instance with an Instrument Bank for Violins 1 with all the articulations loaded into an instrument bank slots, another Kontakt instance for violins 2 and so on. Then at least you know Mind Control is not conflicted between multiple Instrument Banks within one Kontakt instance which seems to be the case here.

If you did end up with one instrument per Kontakt instance you might be able to get away with the Kontakt factory Multi Script that maps MIDI controllers to program change messages. That’s assuming you don’t use any of the other functionality of Mind Control but it’s one less third party thing to break!

This sort of stuff is why I’m a keyswitch guy even though I use a lot of Spitfire stuff!

As an aside there is another benefit to working this way. It’s my understanding that Kontakt can only use ONE core of your CPU effectively when used as a plug-in in both Pro Tools and VE Pro. Someone will no doubt correct me if I’m wrong on this but that’s what it looks like to me. Therefore spreading your instruments across multiple instances of Kontakt rather than stuffing as many instruments into one Kontakt Multi is generally a good idea because you’re spreading your Kontakt CPU demands across more cores.
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  #12  
Old 09-27-2019, 11:43 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

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Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post

As an aside there is another benefit to working this way. Itís my understanding that Kontakt can only use ONE core of your CPU effectively when used as a plug-in in both Pro Tools and VE Pro. Someone will no doubt correct me if Iím wrong on this but thatís what it looks like to me. Therefore spreading your instruments across multiple instances of Kontakt rather than stuffing as many instruments into one Kontakt Multi is generally a good idea because youíre spreading your Kontakt CPU demands across more cores.
You sir are correct on this one. I do with Kontakt and EW Play engine stuff like you recommend - one instrument with it's articulations in one instance of either Kontakt or Play.
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  #13  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:32 PM
melodydetective melodydetective is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
I think Iíve understood! I see Mind Control is a Multi Scipt used to switch articulations within a Kontakt Instrument Bank in various clever ways and what youíre trying to do is have multiple Instrument Banks per Kontakt instance each on a different MIDI channel? In that case you not only assign conditions to select an Instrument Bank slot with a MIDI controller but also the MIDI channel of the Instrument Bank you want to address?
In a single instance of Kontakt, I load a bank, then set conditions for each patch to be selected, in much the same way as UACC works - if CC32 is seen and its value is 5, then the slot with the legato patch or whatever is selected. No midi channel used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
I see why you would want to do that but man, itís asking a lot IMO, fiddly to set up and assumes there are no conflicts between a third party Multi Script and any individual instrumentís scripting. Plus thereís a risk that future Kontakt updates break Mind Control. Personally Iíve given up on third party Instrument Scripts in the past because they broke too often. Too many potential workflow breakers here!
Well - it is fiddly, but the return would have been worth the effort had it completely worked - right now it's only partially functional. I also use Composer Tools Pro, a Lemur template on iPad that allows me to utterly customize a control surface with named articulation switches, custom faders and button and x/y controllers and so on. In ProTools you can set it up so that when you select a track, Composer Tools Pro recalls a preset that relates to that track. So that's awesome. Also fiddly, but being able to reach over and press a labelled button for spiccatissimo (that works for every section in Berlin Strings) is really great. Also, as you say, if it stops being compatible I have to find another app that will likely only do some of that. But it's really cool to me right now. Helping me to get through huge cues more quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
If it were me, Iíd bite the bullet and set up an instance of Kontakt per instrument, i.e. one instance with an Instrument Bank for Violins 1 with all the articulations loaded into an instrument bank slots, another Kontakt instance for violins 2 and so on. Then at least you know Mind Control is not conflicted between multiple Instrument Banks within one Kontakt instance which seems to be the case here.
That's how it is now. I think I'm just overwhelming Capsule. Kontakt can handle only so many requests at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
If you did end up with one instrument per Kontakt instance you might be able to get away with the Kontakt factory Multi Script that maps MIDI controllers to program change messages. Thatís assuming you donít use any of the other functionality of Mind Control but itís one less third party thing to break!
I could, if banks worked - though of course I will have to reprogram my Composer Tools Pro setup. But are program changes auto-chasing like controllers are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
This sort of stuff is why Iím a keyswitch guy even though I use a lot of Spitfire stuff!
Spitfire works perfectly with this setup already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
As an aside there is another benefit to working this way. Itís my understanding that Kontakt can only use ONE core of your CPU effectively when used as a plug-in in both Pro Tools and VE Pro. Someone will no doubt correct me if Iím wrong on this but thatís what it looks like to me. Therefore spreading your instruments across multiple instances of Kontakt rather than stuffing as many instruments into one Kontakt Multi is generally a good idea because youíre spreading your Kontakt CPU demands across more cores.
I believe this is true - but my system isn't struggling at the moment. The benefit of a single Kontakt instance is that it's a single MIDI target. Having all articulations available on one track in PT is really great - I strongly dislike huge templates. I'm wondering now if I couldn't put a simple script in every single-patch instance of Kontakt that doesn't pass note data unless a certain CC is at a certain value. I'd want it to pass controllers regardless. Maybe a little time with KSP is in order.
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  #14  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:35 PM
melodydetective melodydetective is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
To the op:
Is your version of VEPro up to date?
VEPro 6 or 7?
Since you don't know exactly what's falling over maybe mention this in the VEPro forum and see what people there might know.
It's one less than the latest 7. There sometimes seem to be a chilling effect on talking about other libraries' issues.

I begged them repeatedly to put scripting in VEPro 7. It would make it so much more powerful.

Last edited by melodydetective; 09-27-2019 at 12:40 PM. Reason: typo
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  #15  
Old 09-27-2019, 12:39 PM
melodydetective melodydetective is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

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Originally Posted by akm2018 View Post
I run large orchestral templates in Pro Tools for scoring to picture. I mostly have Instrument tracks routed to VEPro, one track per patch, with MIDI going to VE and audio from the patch in VE routed back to it's corresponding instrument track (the same one the MIDI was sent from).

I personally don't have any issues with my setup, either with midi notes or controller data not being played back correctly. This makes me think that Mind Control might be the issue. Have you tried taking Mind Control out of the equation and seeing if you get the same or different results?
Agreed that it's pointing towards the interaction of Mind Control scripts and Orchestral Tools' Capsule scripts that surround Berlin Strings. Taking Mind Control out of the scenario means either that I have to use simpler NI Kontakt stock scripts, or that I have to go back to track per articulation, which I really, really want to avoid.
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  #16  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:48 PM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by melodydetective View Post
In a single instance of Kontakt, I load a bank, then set conditions for each patch to be selected, in much the same way as UACC works - if CC32 is seen and its value is 5, then the slot with the legato patch or whatever is selected. No midi channel used.



Well - it is fiddly, but the return would have been worth the effort had it completely worked - right now it's only partially functional. I also use Composer Tools Pro, a Lemur template on iPad that allows me to utterly customize a control surface with named articulation switches, custom faders and button and x/y controllers and so on. In ProTools you can set it up so that when you select a track, Composer Tools Pro recalls a preset that relates to that track. So that's awesome. Also fiddly, but being able to reach over and press a labelled button for spiccatissimo (that works for every section in Berlin Strings) is really great. Also, as you say, if it stops being compatible I have to find another app that will likely only do some of that. But it's really cool to me right now. Helping me to get through huge cues more quickly.



That's how it is now. I think I'm just overwhelming Capsule. Kontakt can handle only so many requests at once.



I could, if banks worked - though of course I will have to reprogram my Composer Tools Pro setup. But are program changes auto-chasing like controllers are?



Spitfire works perfectly with this setup already.



I believe this is true - but my system isn't struggling at the moment. The benefit of a single Kontakt instance is that it's a single MIDI target. Having all articulations available on one track in PT is really great - I strongly dislike huge templates. I'm wondering now if I couldn't put a simple script in every single-patch instance of Kontakt that doesn't pass note data unless a certain CC is at a certain value. I'd want it to pass controllers regardless. Maybe a little time with KSP is in order.
Sounds like I’m preaching to the choir here and you know exactly what you’re doing!

I must check out Composer Tools Pro.

I also hate having countless articulations spread across countless tracks but have always used keyswitches, partly because I always have and everything is set so whatever the library, the same keyswitches select the same articulation and has done for 20 years. This took a LOT of work but it does mean EVERY articulation of an instrument is addressed by a single instrument track in Pro Tools.

It’s a shame the Spitfire’s UACC protocol hasn’t been widely adopted. For that matter it’s about time PT had articulation management like Cubase and Logic do. Not holding my breath for that though.

I don’t know if PT chases program changes to be honest because in my scenario it doesn’t need to. In case you didn’t know, each slot of an Instrument Bank can be recalled with a program change and I’m guessing that’s what Mind Control is spitting out to switch Instrument Bank slots. It doesn’t matter whether PT chases PCs or not because you’re actually sending it keyswitches (or controllers if you prefer) that are mapped to PCs by the script. I’ve never had any conflicts with the scripting of any instruments loaded into slots in an Instrument Bank providing there are no conflicting keyswitches or controllers in use in an instrument that are also used to trigger the Multi Script. This is academic if you’re sticking with Mind Control but I’m just wondering out loud if the Kontakt factory script would play nicer with the likes of Capsule scripting than Mind Control.
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  #17  
Old 09-27-2019, 06:32 PM
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John_Toolbox John_Toolbox is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

I have not used mind control, but did work for a developer where I spent a lot of time coding kontakt scripts. As cool as multi-script could have the potential to be, it is not very useful for anything other than very simple implementations. It works the best in the standalone version of kontakt, but is still pretty limiting even in that realm. The developer I worked for refused to put any more R&D into multi-script after spending many months with another (much more expensive) programmer than myself only to come to the conclusion that all of the multiscript programming he had done was not going to be usable.

As others have said, kontakt as a plug-in is much more efficient if you load many instances, each with one instrument vs. trying to load many instruments in one instance. Kontakt scripting has fairly restrictive limitations in how many things it can do with a note, Iím not sure if this is by design to keep it from having too much latency or a problem related to the scripting language being a high level language. But I would guess most kontakt scripters will try to get as close to hitting this wall as possible if they are doing anything in the note callback.

I did use pro tools to compose orchestral music back in the samplecell days, but canít imagine using it for that again after using Logic. The features like track folders are (to me) an absolute must for large orch templates. I occasionally use midi in pro tools for smaller projects, but usually start my sequence in logic, and record/mix in pro tools.
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  #18  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:12 PM
melodydetective melodydetective is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

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Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
Itís a shame the Spitfireís UACC protocol hasnít been widely adopted. For that matter itís about time PT had articulation management like Cubase and Logic do. Not holding my breath for that though.
Agreed on both points. A scripting layer would be so very useful. And also folder tracks.
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  #19  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:18 PM
melodydetective melodydetective is offline
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Default Re: Anyone using large orchestra templates?

Hi John -

Thank you for your insight into this. What I wish is that I could use TransMIDIfier between Pro Tools and VEPro - or that VEPro had TransMIDIfier's feature set embedded in it. I'd rather load individual Kontakt instruments and then tell the host how I want to address them. And TransMIDIfier is unbelievable, but it removes the ability to do offline bounces, and I'm not super-confident in its longevity.

I love many of Logic's features, but I dislike the tool situation, the locating and the view changing compared to how Pro Tools does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Toolbox View Post
I have not used mind control, but did work for a developer where I spent a lot of time coding kontakt scripts. As cool as multi-script could have the potential to be, it is not very useful for anything other than very simple implementations. It works the best in the standalone version of kontakt, but is still pretty limiting even in that realm. The developer I worked for refused to put any more R&D into multi-script after spending many months with another (much more expensive) programmer than myself only to come to the conclusion that all of the multiscript programming he had done was not going to be usable.

As others have said, kontakt as a plug-in is much more efficient if you load many instances, each with one instrument vs. trying to load many instruments in one instance. Kontakt scripting has fairly restrictive limitations in how many things it can do with a note, Iím not sure if this is by design to keep it from having too much latency or a problem related to the scripting language being a high level language. But I would guess most kontakt scripters will try to get as close to hitting this wall as possible if they are doing anything in the note callback.

I did use pro tools to compose orchestral music back in the samplecell days, but canít imagine using it for that again after using Logic. The features like track folders are (to me) an absolute must for large orch templates. I occasionally use midi in pro tools for smaller projects, but usually start my sequence in logic, and record/mix in pro tools.
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