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  #21  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:47 PM
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Tony Cariddi Tony Cariddi is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

Hi Jenk2k,

Thanks for your post. You bring up some great points I'd like to address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenk2k View Post
This idea that HD retains the highest and most demanding standards of audio engineers and people who rely on them for business is hard to hear. A $15000 HD system with a fancy MAC should really run pretty seamlessly, like a microwave. A recent HD upgrade to 8 that I know of was a mess. All the discussion on Digi about not testing every possible configuration should be out the window when it comes to flagship HD systems on a MAC. Barring hardware failures, for 15k that thing should run like an appliance,and i think that is fair.
Pro Tools|HD should work out of the box. Comparing it to an appliance is difficult because of the nature of OS and software updates but I agree that if we are going to charge for it, it needs to work! Digidesign takes testing very seriously and makes every effort to ensure that our solutions work on tested configurations. I have worked for a few companies in this industry and don't know any of them that take customer service as seriously as Avid Digidesign. It sounds like the upgrade you are referring to was not your own but if you happen to know the details I would be interested in hearing how we handled the situation.

Quote:
I feel pretty strongly that businesses must acknowledge the customers needs and demands and place them ahead of everything else. I read a book that the other day said that success changes the very conditions that led to it, and this is especially true with technology companies. I have been worried about Digi for a little while now.

I know we can get demanding and out of hand on this forum, but Digi must acknowledge that the users dictate the terms of the market, not the company. Just because ProTools is a big standard right now doesn't mean the company and its products aren't susceptible to major changes in the market. While Digi is toiling away right now, likely developing something smart for w7 (yay!!) and catching up on ADC (we hope anyhow) the competition is releasing other innovative products that meet needs in a highly creative way.

I'm rooting for Digi as I really love the platform and logical way it works. I just hope more users don't jump ship and force me to consider other platforms just to be able to communicate sessions back and forth.
I completely agree that the customers define the market, rather than the company. There is a book called, Tuned In, that has a similar message about the necessity of companies staying in touch with the challenges of their market in order to stay competitive. Avid Digidesign is "tuned in" to this idea and is investing more than ever into customer outreach to ensure that we continue to offer compelling solutions.

Also, thanks for the support. We are working hard to assure that you remain a loyal customer!
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  #22  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:48 PM
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Kris75 Kris75 is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

Hi Tony,

I have been running PT for quite a few years (since 5.1.1) If you asked me 5 years ago about this upgrade I would have jumped at the chance. Then I built my first Quadcore computer. Wow is all I can say about that.
Now I run an i7. I rarely ever have to leave a buffer of 64 and if I do, its to a buffer of 128. My sessions regularly run into the 50-60 track count. All have eq and compressor on the channel from my recording template. I may not use them as they are bypassed until I decide if I need them. I don't take them off. I have 6-8 versions of Eleven LE running as well as multiple verbs and delays with heavy automation and usually have any number of Hybrid/Xpand/Superior Drummer 2/Structure running. The only limitation I run into is not going to be solved by PTHD. The amount of ram I can access to run these VI's.

I would rather pay digidesign for features such as OFF LINE BOUNCE and PDC. Just my opinion. DSP for the DAW market is pretty much over. Besides the artificial track/bus/io count there is nothing for me in HD.

I love pro tools, but I fear if you guys keep trying to make HD stay alive, I will be forced to move to another software. Not because I want to, but because you will be bankrupt and the doors will be closed.

Trust me, I don't ever want to see that happen. I stick up for pro tools in a market that is moving rapidly away. I know, I have many students at the school I teach that tell me everyday
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  #23  
Old 10-20-2009, 06:57 PM
Matt P Matt P is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

Hi Tony,

First welcome to PTLe Land.
Now I used PTLE the better part of 7 years since 5.3.
And have built and developed many a DAW for this community as in the Original Quadzilla with Shane.
I have done everything I could to still use it but alas, When Logic 8 came out I went with it.
Let face it I got off line bounce, PDC, AWESOME VI's and Plugin's and NO DAE errors.
Now I still have a lot of good friends here that I still try and make PT a better place to live in and use.
BUT
Let face the facts:
1) In Logic 9 I can run 100+ sessions at buffer of 32, with countless ESX24 VI's, Video, Have a real working version of Elastic audio (called Flextime that does not distort.) also works as the best Beat detective and Drum replacer there is, In 5.1 surround,........

OH and did I mention that I was streaming this off of my Mac Pro hard drive to my Macbook Pro over a N wireless with no glitches.
And good grief If I ever need power for those really big sessions 250 tracks?
I can use Logic Node to off load those extra Plugins and VI's.
And with logic Node you might ask how many nodes, as many Macs as you can own.
And then there is REAPER............
Watch Out.

2)You speak of HD but why NOT also tell these LE user about the Problems that your are having right NOW with Windows PTHD 8.0.1 and 6031 errors?
Glitches and Pops?
And this is superior in what way?
(I have several friends that are screaming over this and are back on 7.4)
http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=256648

3) In 2 days Windows 7 is coming out and yet I will Guarantee you that it will be 6 months before you will have a stable 32 and 64 bit Windows Firewire driver. The good Part is USB does work in both.

Now having said all this I still do care about your company since the lose of it only make one less in the competition and that is no good for any of us.
I Real do wish you guys would listen to us As Shane And I proved to you about HD vs the multiple core processors 4 years ago when you brought a HD core card and Accel card out to prove that the original Quad was built that there was no way it could compete with DSP and HD and we all Know what happened after that or just read the Quadzilla thread if don't know.
But yes I do still care about PT but the real question is does Avid care about us?
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  #24  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:24 PM
Tony Cariddi's Avatar
Tony Cariddi Tony Cariddi is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt P View Post
Hi Tony,

First welcome to PTLe Land.
Quote:
You speak of HD but why NOT also tell these LE user about the Problems that your are having right NOW with Windows PTHD 8.0.3 and 6031 errors?
Glitches and Pops?
And this is superior in what way?
Quote:
But yes I do still care about PT but the real question is does Avid care about us?
Hello Matt and thanks for the warm welcome!

The purpose of this thread is to support discussion over the benefits of upgrading from Pro Tools LE to HD, not to talk about pre-release software. Pro Tools version 8.0.3pr is pre-release software provided as a convenience for those who wish to begin their transition to Snow Leopard before a fully tested and qualified version of Pro Tools becomes available. We are certainly not trying to hide anything there. It will be the highest priority that Pro Tools 8.0.3 (the official release) ships without bugs.

Avid absolutely does care about you, the customer– it is in our best interest to deliver solutions that work for you. That being said, everyone's expectations and demands are different. Pro Tools|HD continues to be a powerful solution for those who demand the dedicated processing that ensures peak performance when the CPU is pushed to its limits.
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  #25  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:50 PM
Matt P Matt P is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt P View Post

2)You speak of HD but why NOT also tell these LE user about the Problems that your are having right NOW with Windows PTHD 8.0.1 and 6031 errors?
Glitches and Pops?

And this is superior in what way?
(I have several friends that are screaming over this and are back on 7.4)
http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread.php?t=256648
Tony,
First my mistake I typo 8.0.3 and meant 8.0.1
You must have read this wrong I was not referring to the Prerelease for Snow Leopard.
This a HUGE problem follow the Link in the PTHD forum and see what is really going on.
I Also truly hope that AVID/DIGI does care,
The sad part is using outdated DSP chips is not the answer.
Worked well in 2000 but not in 2010.
We don't run 200 MHz Processors anymore.
Only in the CNC machines that I repair for a living in fact they use the same Motorola and TI DSP chip for Axis movements.
This is actual what these chips were developed for in the 80's for the Machine tool industry for Aerospace.

Matt
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  #26  
Old 10-20-2009, 10:01 PM
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Shan Shan is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Cariddi View Post
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the post. It is true that faster processors are enabling native workstations with the power to run a good amount of plug-ins. Fast processors are benefiting the RTAS processing pool in both Pro Tools LE and HD systems alike. The difference is that with Pro Tools|HD you have two pools of resources: native (RTAS) and dedicated (TDM). With native workstations you have only one.
I'm gonna be pretty blunt and to the point here(another warm welcome ), but you guys at Avid Audio HQ have truly been under a rock for the past 3 years. You really have. An Intel i7 alone gives us more plug-in instances/DSP power than a full blown HD 7 that uses TDM only. This is at a buffer of 64 with native CPU power left over to spare. That's just a mere Quad, never mind an 8 core or even the new Intel i9 6 core that's around the corner. I've never seen anyone max out an HD 7 using TDM only so good luck convincing i7 native users that they'll need more power. The native users that feel they need more power will simply upgrade their CPU for a few hundred dollars. The argument of saying that you get the benefits of TDM DSP plus the host DSP is a pretty cheesy marketing approach in that regard. TDM is a voiced based system and one will burn through those voices in no time once you start adding RTAS and the useless delay comp we have in TDM etc. You also have to include the cost and purchase of TDM plug-ins, which are double in price, yet they null out with the RTAS version.

Quote:
In demanding scenarios when you are using a broad array of DSP hungry VI's (that are depend on native power like PLAY, Ivory, and VSL), in conjunction with EQ, DYN, and delay plug-ins, HD's benefits are that you can push your host processor to its limits, even pushing up your buffer settings significantly if necessary, all the while retaining the near-zero latency on audio tracks and peak UI performance.
Demanding scenerios? You guys really, really, really need to get out of that ivory tower and have a look around. I have LE sessions that CANNOT open in HD 3, HD 4 or even HD 5 rigs using exclusively TDM only plug-ins. This moderate session runs on an old Q6600 Quad without issues at a buffer of 64 with CPU headroom to spare.

What's in that session?

TransX Wide - 1
C1 gate - 5
SSL Channel - 2
RComp - 25
REQ 4 bands - 15
REQ 6 bands - 12
MetaFlanger - 3
C4 - 4
DeEsser - 6
RVox - 4
TrueVerb - 1
Q1-Paragraphic EQ - 1
IR-1 - 1
RVerb - 1
Doubler 2
DaD Valve - 21
DUY Wide - 1
AC2 - 20
AC 1 - 2
Chrome Amp - 1
Compressor Bank CB1 - 5
Filter Bank E6 - 2
Filter Bank F2 - 3
TimeAdjuster - 1
EQ 3 7-Band - 5
EQ 3 4-Band - 3
Cosmonaut Voice - 3
TL Space - 1
1-Band EQ II - 1
D-Verb - 2
Long Delay II - 2
Extra Long Delay II - 4
4-Band EQ II - 1

Also, about 60 channels of audio and approx 14 aux returns in the above session. The CPU meter on an i7 would drop to around 15% on that very session. What about recording in that session? As you can see, even with the artificial track limit of 16 I/O, that too is not a problem, even at a buffer of 64 and there's CPU to spare. What about recording MIDI in that session. Again, no issues, even at a buffer of 64.

Keep in mind those old image shots are from an old Intel Q6600 Quad. The CPU meter will drop to around 15% on an i7. 128+ track sessions are no problem at all on the now "old and dated" Intel i7...and it's only a mere quad core that one can slap together for around $800. As you can see, pushing the CPU to it's limits on today's computers, even with the horrid performing RTAS engine, can be hard to do.

Quote:
Assuming we are comparing apples to apples here and the CPU is the same, it is not fair to say that an LE system can outperform an HD system because if the native power is constant, the dedicated processing you get with HD is always in addition to the power the native.
As mentioned earlier, I've never seen anyone max out an HD 7 using TDM DSP alone. We have native PT LE systems that surpass that easy these days. Keep in mind that this is also on the worst performing native plug-in format out there we call RTAS. That argument is definitely not going to convince any LE owner to downgrade to an overpriced and bug ridden HD system. This is an obvious disparate plea to sell a very outdated system that no longer sells like it use to. All this cheesy marketing on this page is quite laughable to most of us here, and it's definitely full of misinformation. You're definitely stuck in the stoneage - Period. I highly doubt you'll find anyone here in the PT LE for Windows forum jumping the gun and downgrading to HD.

Fix Pro Tools. Overhaul the RTAS engine. Face the cold hard facts and go native, like you should've been preparing for years ago. Start recoding PT from the ground up. Again, something that should've started years ago. It's getting beyond "too little, too late" at this point. Digidesign/Avid Audio is doing a stellar job at making it's long time user base look for alternative DAW solutions, unfortunately, and HD(Had it's Day) is not one of them.

Shane
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Michael Wagener 25th July 2005, 02:59 PM

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  #27  
Old 10-20-2009, 10:04 PM
devkerr devkerr is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt P View Post

I Also truly hope that AVID/DIGI does care,
The sad part is using outdated DSP chips is not the answer.
Worked well in 2000 but not in 2010.
We don't run 200 MHz Processors anymore.
Only in the CNC machines that I repair for a living in fact they use the same Motorola and TI DSP chip for Axis movements.
This is actual what these chips were developed for in the 80's for the Machine tool industry for Aerospace.

Matt
Hahah! Hell yea!

Thanks Matt—best reason to NOT buy an HD system I've ever heard!
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  #28  
Old 10-20-2009, 10:45 PM
sunburst79 sunburst79 is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

I think Digi has hit a fairly critical point were just as many of the LE users are seriously looking at moving on vs moving up. The HD users are waiting for the next big thing. The LE users are waiting for the next big thing. And neither group is very interested in upgrading to the current offerings in the current climate.

It's not so much a perception of purchase price as it is value. In order to duplicate the value of my i7 rig I would need HD3 and 2 192's. That's roughly 10,000.00+ to gain ADC and a lot of post centric features I could care less about. And that value in the native rigs was added by AMD and Intel-not Digi and its poorly written drivers and slow to advance operating system support. While Digi has added some features to PTLE over the years its been the grassroots users that railroaded the performance increases on the PC side.

The new prices are nice. Don't get me wrong. It's a generous offer. I've thought about HD but frankly the value is not there and its not like I couldn't make it happen if I wanted. Its simply not compelling.

Some of us run LE by choice. Some of us feel it makes more sense.

Bring something nice to NAMM and we'll all party.

P.S. Not to bash you or Digi. Most of us are as passionate about Pro Tools as any of the employees and want to see the company do well again. Thank you for participating. We actually appreciate that even if the criticism is some times sharp. We've been Tuned In to PT for some time now
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  #29  
Old 10-20-2009, 10:54 PM
Jenk2k Jenk2k is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

I would like to thank everyone, so far, in this thread for the honesty and civility of this forum. It has been an enjoyable read. I believe Digi understands these needs, they must. Short of coming into our studios and seeing exactly what it is that we do with Native systems, I don't think they are going to get it without honest, fair, constructive criticism.
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  #30  
Old 10-21-2009, 01:21 AM
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Shan Shan is offline
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Default Re: Pro Tools LE to HD upgrade special: Open discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Cariddi View Post
Avid absolutely does care about you, the customer– it is in our best interest to deliver solutions that work for you.
Those of us who've been here on the forum for 10+ years will have quite the different viewpoint and opinion on that one.

Quote:
That being said, everyone's expectations and demands are different.
The top ten HD and LE feature requests have changed very little over the past ten years. It's way past time some of them get delivered.

Quote:
Pro Tools|HD continues to be a powerful solution for those who demand the dedicated processing that ensures peak performance when the CPU is pushed to its limits.
It's overpriced and under powered compared to native these days. One HD Accel card will spit out a mere 38 Dverbs. A full blown HD 7 system will do a total of 256 Dverbs(Core card will do 28). Keep in mind this is maxed out with no DSP left for delay comp etc. An i7 Quad at a buffer of 64(that's under 5ms round trip like HD) will do 344 Dverbs. We have surpassed that old dated technology with plenty of CPU power to spare, and keep in mind, this is only a quad core that can be slapped together for under $800. 6, 8, 12 core systems can be built today, which would again be more powerful and cheaper than HD. Best of luck competing with Intel.

I've never seen anyone max out an HD 7 system so it's very unlikely one will max out a native i7 rig, let alone needing the power of both. Hence, that marketing pitch isn't gonna cut it for most of us.

Now that we've established the power of native systems, convince us that the downgrade to HD is worth the overpriced investment in this day and age.

Quote:
...it is in our best interest to deliver solutions that work for you.
It's way past time to deliver a full featured native system. That is what we want, and that is what we've always wanted. By the time you finally wake up and deliver this, it will probably be too late...unfortunately.

Shane
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