how to achieve dialnorm of -24 or-12 db analog in PROTOOLS

[corym]

My recommend would be to disregard the analog reading altogether. If they want a -24 dial norm you should provide that for them. Simply brick walling your mix to -12 in a digital domain does not equate to -12dB in the analog domain. Plus, you are mixing with LE, so your levels are -10 instead of professional +4 levels.

Most likely the network is worried about their stereo broadcast, since that is what 90% of the viewers will be receiving. If you are mixing in a 5.1 environment, downmix it to a stereo LTRT (whether it is thru a Dolby encoder or creating a crashdown buss). Now, throw the Digidesign Phase scope across your LTRT. In my experience the Dialnorm is usually 2 dB more than your LEQ(a) weighted reading, so aim for -26 on the Phase scope. Once you have your mix close, you can download a Dolby Media Meter demo from Digidesign.com and check it for your Dialnorm value. My bet is that it will be real close to -24, if not spot on. The only reason this will work is because you have wall to wall dialog. In a long format environment this wont be the case because there are lots of instances where there is no dialog present.

BTW Dont ever contact the network without the permission of your producer.

It's unfortunate that networks have resolved to declaring the intended Dialnorm value. Dolby originally developed Dialnorm as a way for the mixer to inform the network of the average, and the network would adjust their broadcasts, not the other way around. The current standards are what is driving the force behind un-dynamic mixes. Mixers are finding less and less time to complete the project, so they mix into the meter, which results in a flat un-dynamic mix across the board. On second thought, maybe Jack Bauer does speak just as loud as the gunshots, just saying.

[minister]

Originally Posted by corym

My recommend would be to disregard the analog reading altogether. If they want a -24 dial norm you should provide that for them. Simply brick walling your mix to -12 in a digital domain does not equate to -12dB in the analog domain.

In a properly calibrated setup, why not?

Originally Posted by corym

Plus, you are mixing with LE, so your levels are -10 instead of professional +4 levels.

No it isn't. It is a fixed Cal of -14 (I think, maybe some are -16?) = 1.228 V RMS = +4 dBU.

Originally Posted by corym

If you are mixing in a 5.1 environment, downmix it to a stereo LTRT (whether it is thru a Dolby encoder or creating a crashdown buss).

To do that, you have to swap polarity on the RS. (A trick a fellow mixer told me). Otherwise, it's LoRo.

Originally Posted by corym

Now, throw the Digidesign Phase scope across your LTRT. In my experience the Dialnorm is usually 2 dB more than your LEQ(a) weighted reading, so aim for -26 on the Phase scope. Once you have your mix close, you can download a Dolby Media Meter demo from Digidesign.com and check it for your Dialnorm value. My bet is that it will be real close to -24, if not spot on.

We all know the Phase Scope is off. If it is a paying, professional gig, and Dialnorm is required, why not invest in the tools to do it right? What if the job comes back? Or there is another? The demo will run out.

Originally Posted by corym

BTW Dont ever contact the network without the permission of your producer.

Haven't head that before. I have spoken to Network Engineers and gotten Spec sheets, Explanations, even spoke with some QC people.

Originally Posted by corym

The current standards are what is driving the force behind un-dynamic mixes.

Along inexperienced mixers turning in less than stellar mixes, and misuse of new powerful digital tools, and the lack of standards in digital mixing, and client requests, and network executives trying to make some order, and audience complaints.

I love dynamic mixes.

[Postman]

downmix it to a stereo LTRT (whether it is thru a Dolby encoder or creating a crashdown buss)

I am not aiming at corym, but for clarity....

There have been a number of posts recently that confuse the terms LtRt and LoRo. They are not interchangeable. "LtRt", Left-Total Right-Total, is used ONLY to indicate two channel audio that has been phase matrixed with 4 or 5 channels of sound. Dolby's Pro Logic and Pro Logic II are by far the most common today. You cannot create an LtRt without an encoder! The type of encoding should be stated, as in "LtRt Pro Logic II"

"LoRo", Left-Output Right-Output, is just a fancy way to say good old fashioned "stereo" downmixed from a surround mix, like what you make with a "crashdown buss". It does not have intentional phase matrixing.

If you use the term LtRt, it is assumed you have monitored and adjusted for good results through a surround decoder. LoRo is just stereo.

Let's please stop using "LtRt" inappropriately, as doing so will only confuse the old folks.

To do that, you have to swap polarity on the RS. (A trick a fellow mixer told me). Otherwise, it's LoRo.

true in a sense, but it is not that simple. There are also "all pass" filters that apply a 90 degree phase shift to the surround channel(s) just before being mixed with the front channels. Without such a phase shift, you will get unintended level and panning differences with "inner panned" sounds, like a mono track that is panned midway between front and rear. And should I even mention the noise reduction companding applied to the surround signal?

[Postman]

As to "dialnorm", my opinion is that it is a technical fix for an artistic problem, which is no good. It is an attempt to enforce "good mixing" by sticking a number on it, and the number does not adequately measure the results. Combine dialnorm with low peak level limits and you've got totally squashed dynamics. That is our equivalent of mastering's loudness war. I essentially agree with minister, that it is an attempt to compensate for less-than-adequate mixing. It is also, just as much if not moreso, a reaction by the networks to a problem of their own ,that they choose otherwiseto ignore. It is THEIR job to string together programming into a continuous flow, not ours, and as such it is THEIR job to match video and audio properties. But, they are attempting to shove off their responsibility by pointing fingers at their suppliers and enforcing specifications that sort of strong arm the mixes into a common pool of mono-dynamic mush. At least viewers don't have to dive for their remote quite as often. Broadcast has always been a place of relatively low dynamics, and now we're even lower.

Dialnorm as part of delivery specs is like the test scores being imposed on school systems and teachers, where their students must hit certain marks on standardized tests. If the students score well, the schools collect more government subsidies. If not, lack of money is equivalent to punishment of the school system, and the teachers become very unpopular with their administrators. It is NOT focusing on the real problem, which is how to engage students so that they will naturally retain. "Top down" will never replace "bottom up", if that makes sense. But, who cares, it's all been said already.

[rhumphries]

I care.

[Postman]

Originally Posted by rhumphries

i care.

I LOVE YOU!

[corym]

Originally Posted by minister

In a properly calibrated setup, why not?

Because a properly calibrated system is -20dBfs = 0Vu.

Originally Posted by minister

To do that, you have to swap polarity on the RS. (A trick a fellow mixer told me). Otherwise, it's LoRo.

Yes, Thank you for the explanation. I failed to mention there is a difference between LtRt and LoRo (LoRo is simply stereo) I left it to the mixer to determine how to create his LtRt. And simply swapping the polarity on the Rs is not the final answer. Below is the formula:

Lt = L + -3dBC - -3dB(Ls + Rs)
Rt = R + -3dBC + -3dB(Ls + Rs)
(Ls,Rs 90-degree phase shifted)

Originally Posted by minister

We all know the Phase Scope is off. If it is a paying, professional gig, and Dialnorm is required, why not invest in the tools to do it right? What if the job comes back? Or there is another? The demo will run out.

If the production is hiring an engineer who is using an LE system without even the ability of Toolkit for his frame accurate sync, then I am assuming they aren't paying nearly enough for the $795 price tag of the Dolby Media Meter. My apologies for the assumption. I was trying to help the guy get close so that he could check it quickly once he got access to a meter.

Originally Posted by minister

Haven't head that before. I have spoken to Network Engineers and gotten Spec sheets, Explanations, even spoke with some QC people.

Hey, I'm just extending professional practices to a fellow mixer. If you want to contact networks and leave your producer out of the loop, by all means go for it.

Originally Posted by minister

Along inexperienced mixers turning in less than stellar mixes, and misuse of new powerful digital tools, and the lack of standards in digital mixing, and client requests, and network executives trying to make some order, and audience complaints.

I love dynamic mixes.

Well said. I actually hate dynamic mixes. Just yesterday I was admiring how my dumpster lid slam was the same level as my dialog. Really makes the show fun!!

Hugs and kisses

[minister]

Originally Posted by corym

Because a properly calibrated system is -20dBfs = 0Vu.

Yes, indeed it is. And my Analog Dorroughs play all the way to 0dBr! My VU's, even on a brick-walled -10dBFS mix, are not slammed. I don't understand why you say :

Simply brick walling your mix to -12 in a digital domain does not equate to -12dB in the analog domain.

.
-12dB in Pro Tools shows -12dB on my Dorroughs. I am not following what you mean here.

Loaves and Fishes!

[rsub8]

Originally Posted by Postman

"Dialnorm" does not apply to only dialog, although the fact that the measurement's name suggests the word "dialog" can be misleading. The concept of dialnorm is to find consistent dialog levels, but the implementation is with the full mix (which is somewhat messed up, but that's the way practice has shaken out). Re-read rhumphries post, it says the entire mix is measured. What happens is that for most broadcast material, measurement-taking is "paused" when no dialog is present (a feature of the LM100, NOT a feature of AudioLeak). This is why you cannot take the dialog track only and measure with AudioLeak, and come up with the same result as an LM100 in "dialog intelligence" mode.

If I correctly understand the statement above, that isn't quite true of AudioLeak. By using the Gate feature of AudioLeak (Pro version), the measurement actually can be set to ignore parts of the program that drop below a settable loudness threshold, pausing the measurement-taking at those times. (If I have misinterpreted the point of the discussion, I apologize.)

(I realize that this follow up post may be a bit tardy, but it just popped up on Google alerts this morning; it's hard for me to find the time to keep up with and read all the various Internet fora on a regular basis. Thanks for understanding.)

Rob Robinson (AudioLeak developer)

[florian.ardelean]

This post should be a sticky. Thank you DUC!