A Question on Gain Levels - Too Hot or Not

[PC Nemesis]

I'm using a G5 1.6GHz on OSX 10.3.7 PT LE 6.4 002R.
I have made a few assumptions about the gain structure system in PT which I need verifying as I'm having problems getting 'loud' enough bounces without distortion i.e. my mixes compared to industry released stuff sounds like weasels p*ss. Compared to some of your guys mixes its at least half the volume which affects the perceived sound quality. A severe twist on the monitor volume knob needed to get anything near anything else, which is slightly depressing.

1) the way the mixer works (ie the actual algar-rhythms) are no different between PT LE 6.4 and TDM or HD-?

2) If i have Pre-Fader Metering selected, some of my individual tracks when compressed and eq'd subtly go into the 'red' on the meters.
if its in the red, its distorting-correct? (on my ridiculous monitoring system you cant hear it distort until its pushed really hard)

3) if the master fader goes into the red (peaks), and its distorting with Pre Fader Metering disabled, if I pull it down to stop it going into the red, is it still technically distorting? I assumed this because the Pro-Tools menus guide says "this option will effect on-screen levels only" .
Therefore i made the assumption that pulling your Master fader down is an incorrect way of stopping it distorting, and the only reason i could no longer hear it distorting with the fader down is because its too quiet. So, If i run my master fader at the "0" db mark, which i thought was a good idea to do for correct gain structure, I have to run all the individual track faders low to stop the master fader peaking out- either that or i take all my plug-ins off - which defeats the purpose of spending $thousands on nice Plug-ins. or, am i just running everything way too hot and stuffing the entire thing up from word go? I also find running an L1 over the master fader helps, but thats cheating- isnt it?

any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks

[tele_player]

Commercial music gets much of its loudness from the magic of mastering. You can optimize your use of ProTools as much as you like, and it won't sound as loud as if it's professionally mastered.

[MissHiss]

If i have Pre-Fader Metering selected, some of my individual tracks when compressed and eq'd subtly go into the 'red' on the meters.
if its in the red, its distorting-correct?

Not necessarily. It means you're going full code at the bit depth of the session. However, the mixer has 32-bit internal processing. So it may not be distorting at all. The problem is that some of the plug-ins (so I've heard) only have 24-bit processing. If you're getting lots of clips, turn down the input level to the plug-ins a dB or two and see what happens.

If, on the other hand, the track still clips when you remove the plug-ins, you must have clipped during recording. This isn't necessarily audible if the clip(s) is/are very brief.

if the master fader goes into the red (peaks), and its distorting with Pre Fader Metering disabled, if I pull it down to stop it going into the red, is it still technically distorting?

No. This issue has come up several times and Digidesign has made it clear that there is no difference between pulling all of the individual track faders down and pulling down the master.

I also find running an L1 over the master fader helps, but thats cheating- isnt it?

Well if it is, you've got an awful lot of "cheaters" using Pro Tools!!! Me included! Um, no, using the L1 is fine if you aren't going to have the stuff commercially mastered. For increased volume, try pulling the Threshold control on the L1 down until you have the volume level you want. The L1 is more about increasing average loudness than peak luodness.

[Cyamarin]

To my knowledge--and I may not be correct here--but to my knowledge, when the master fader goes into the red, it's distorting the outputs of the system. Pulling down the master fader DOES correct this problem. The reason why you don't notice a clip every time it goes into the red is that Pro Tools LE actually shows a red mark right before clipping, so sometimes it will show red and you won't actually distort, or you'll distort so little that you can barely hear it.

So, pulling down the master fader will get rid of distortion (try turning it up to +12 and hear the difference it makes). The reason why your mixes sound quieter is because they haven't been mastered. The mastering process typically uses a brick-wall limiter (similar to your L1) to bring the peak sounds down, and the rest of the sounds up, causing it to sound much louder, even though the peaks are at the same level. For instance--take any modern song that you have in your music collection and import it into a Pro Tools session and look at the waveform. Almost all of them look like bricks, the waveforms are so dense. This is what mastering does to a song--those songs probably sounded much closer to the level that your mixes are at before they mastered them.

If you absolutely have to master the song yourself, and get it up to the appropriate volume, use your L1 to bring the volume up until it about matches that of a commercial CD reference track. It probably won't sound as good as a professional mastering job, but it will make a difference, and it'll impress the musicians you recorded.

[Chris Coleman]

algar-rhythms

I think I'm going to legally change my name...

"Rhythms, Algar Rhythms"

[Flux 1.21]

I have absolutely no problems with gain levels and my mixes are unmastered.

[PC Nemesis]

thanks guys youve set me straight. but honestly. who has the time to take the piss out of peoples spelling mistakes.