Automation timing issue

[WildHoney]

Originally Posted by Brandonx1

No. It does seem like that is all you need to do but it's not. Imaging you have a pt session. With a signal flow like this: 0 delay for insert plug ins -> fader ->4000 sample delay after the fader before you output to the da converter. Pro tools busto advance the audio 4000 samples at the start of playback to compensate for this delay. You hear a loud sound and pull down the fader in exactly the correct time, you just missed the audio you wanted to attinuate by 4000 samples becAuse by the time you hear what you do with the fader, it takes 4000 samples to get ou of the pt mixer after that. You get it? Now PT can try and shift your fader move in time on stop but now the next time you hit play, you mix will sound different than the time you wrote the fader automation. So avid is quite screwed either way. Blame Einstein for this one, not AVID.

That's not how it's working though. I'm not sure where you get the 4000 sample pre-delay preceding DA conversion idea, but let's assume that's the case. ProTools knows there is this 4000 sample delay, so when it detects your controller's fader move it knows that that info should be moved earlier by 4000 samples. Now, obviously it can't record it earlier than it detected it, but when pressing stop, before the next playback, it can shift early by 4000 samples so that the automation plays back in the intended time. At this point, your automation data is just like any automation you'd write in via mouse. And will play back in time, every time.

Now, all this is moot because this supposed 4000 sample pre-delay preceding DA conversion does not seem to affect the behavior that's been described. That is, if you make a session with no system delay due to plug-ins, routing, etc, and you record a fader move via ethernet controller, that automation data records in time. It's only when inserting a plug-in for which ADC is compensating that the controller automation is recorded late.

Also, in the descriptions of this behavior you'll notice that Pro Tools DOES in fact know where the automation SHOULD be. It graphically represents it in real time in the edit window AS you're making the move. It's only after pressing stop that the automation gets automatically nudge late (check out the video link above).

Finally, users on Logic, Cubase, etc do not experience this same behavior. And I think they're as reliant on Einstein as anybody ;-)

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by WildHoney

Also, in the descriptions of this behavior you'll notice that Pro Tools DOES in fact know where the automation SHOULD be. It graphically represents it in real time in the edit window AS you're making the move. It's only after pressing stop that the automation gets automatically nudge late (check out the video link above).

I watched the video and tried to replicate on my system. Its NOT happening here. The automation does NOT move after I stop playback. It stay where it was recorded. For this test I had 5360 samples with ADC on. When was this video done? Witch version of Protools? Are you guys sure that this problem is happening? Doesn't seems for me...

Now, the only time it could happen is: If you have a big ADC plugin on your master fader (like Waves multiband) and you disable the delay for the master fader everything goes bananas... but then you can hear when your recording that the automation is late.

[WildHoney]

Originally Posted by Fidelis

I watched the video and tried to replicate on my system. Its NOT happening here. The automation does NOT move after I stop playback. It stay where it was recorded. For this test I had 5360 samples with ADC on. When was this video done? Witch version of Protools? Are you guys sure that this problem is happening? Doesn't seems for me...

Now, the only time it could happen is: If you have a big ADC plugin on your master fader (like Waves multiband) and you disable the delay for the master fader everything goes bananas... but then you can hear when your recording that the automation is late.

Thanks for checking it out and posting. I haven't had time to a really thorough, controlled test, but I hope I can tomorrow and really try to narrow this issue down. Will post what I find. With the amount of delay you were inducing, it would not be a subtle shift -- you'd definitely SEE it move late, so there must be something different between the test you did and the "real-world" way that all of us who have reported this are working.

[WildHoney]

Got to perform a more thorough test today. I created a new session with one audio track and one aux track. Audio track routed to aux track. Aux track routed to main hardware outputs on the a 192 interface.

On each I put an L3MultiMaximizer and 8 L2's. This puts the total system delay very close to, but still under the limit of ADC.

Next, deactivated all plugins. Set automation on the audio track to touch. Press play, move fader, press stop, automation prints in time.

Then, activate all the plugins only on the audio track. Press play, move fader, press stop, automation prints in time.

Finally, deactivate audio channel plugins and activate aux channel plugins. Press play, move fader. Automation, when recording, appears in time. Press stop and automation data jumps late by (it seems) the total amount of system delay (CMD-2 show that value in the session setup window -- in this case, 4091 samples).

I've posted the test session used here if anyone can verify the results: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/46797835/FileChute/test.zip

So what this is telling me is that if you use plug-ins on an aux track in your workflow, you cannot write automation, via controller (C24 in this case), in time. I'm not sure I know any ProTools users (in music production/mixing) who don't use aux tracks either to sub mix parts within a mix, or at the very least, as a mix bus on which to apply compression, limiting, etc. So, assuming my test is verifiable, is this just the way it is??? And will all DAW's do this when use aux tracks? FWIW, my assistant did the same test on his LE system and reported the same results.

[BigBadBill]

Just bumping this up. Seems incredible that there is no solution to this after so many years. I'm also surprised that so few people seem to mind or notice. For me, accurately automating a vocal with a fader, like on a LFAC, is impossible in Protools.

[WildHoney]

Originally Posted by BigBadBill

Just bumping this up. Seems incredible that there is no solution to this after so many years. I'm also surprised that so few people seem to mind or notice. For me, accurately automating a vocal with a fader, like on a LFAC, is impossible in Protools.

My feelings exactly. I just watched a Tony Maserati promotional video on the Avid site and he mentions going through live and making preliminary automation moves on his D-Comman and I'm thinking, "oh yeah, did you also hit CMD-2, check for your total system delay, then select all the automation you just laid down, then hit OPT-H, click "earlier" and then enter the total number of sample of system delay in your session, then hit enter?" Because that's what it seems needs to be done if you use any aux channels with plug-ins on them and you want your automation to play back in time. . . .

[stevegalante]

Any updates on this ?

[WildHoney]

Originally Posted by stevegalante

Any updates on this ?

Not even an acknowledgement from avid that it exists as a problem. 😼

[stevegalante]

That's not good...... let's hope for PT 11...... I wanna do a test on my other favourite DAW (Studio One) even though I don't use a controller with it (with PT I use a ProControl). It would be nice to have an official reply on this from Avid.

[WildHoney]

Just a note to say I'm on Pro Tools HD 12.6, with a D-Command all my automation moves are recording late by the exact amount of system delay in my session. This mean that to write accurate automation with a controller, one must make their automation moves live, in time, then stop, then select the newly written automation and shift it back by the same number of samples as your session has delay (see session setup window).
Good times!