Questions on upgrading to HD1

[SuperPuss]

Hi everyone,

I am not new to the Duc or Protools but I haven't posted here for ages. Anyway, I have had my faithful Digi001 for a long time now and it has served me very well but I am starting to do a lot more with 5.1 and, while it is possible on LE, it is cumbersome.
I have also recently started producing MLP encoded DVDa masters of my mixes but the 001, needless to say, is hardly making the most of it!!!

So, it is fast approaching time for me to make the move to HD and I am thinking of starting with a HD1 system with a 192 i/o and a Midi i/o.
I have a few questions regarding this upgrade that I am hoping someone can help me with.

I am currently running 6.4 LE with my 001 on a single processor AMD3200 64 with an Asus A8V deluxe MB and 1 Gig or RAM. I have the Waves Diamond bundle v5 which is more than enough for what I am doing.
Is there any benefit to upgrading my Waves and running PT 7.3 when I get my HD or is 6.9 with my current Waves package going to perform just as well? It is my understanding that PT7 onwards is really optimised for multi processor systems and my PC is a single CPU so I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that 6.9 and Waves 5 will be just as good performance wise (minus any feature enhancements of PT7 of course).
I am looking at the PCI option rather than the PCIe option for both plugin compatibility and because my MOBO is PCI, not PCIe.

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

BTW - If anyone is interested in hearing some of my tracks, they are all available on my SuperPuss website, including a couple of Dolby Digital 5.1 mixes. Everything to date on my site has been done with my 001.

[SuperPuss]

Upon further browsing here I have discovered there are others using Waves 5 and 5.2 with PT 7.2 and 7.3.
Going by the Digi documentation, I was under the impression that Waves 5.9 was necessary. Is this a case of 'Digi support Waves 5.9 and PT7.3' but Waves 5.2 will 'possibly' still work but not be supported?

[steve at Your Heaven]

If I understand your situation, you are considering buying an HD1 and then possibly 'downgrading' from whatever v7.x it comes with to PT6.9. In this case, and because of the somewhat more finicky nature of TDM systems vs. the LE versions you are used to, you will be your own best test driver. If the cost of upgrading your Waves (and other plugins, etc.) is possible for you, then just wait until you have the system running and see if it works happily enough without the other upgrade costs. Do check the compatibility specs to be sure your computer system will work with whatever you want to buy.

Relatedly, there have been several posts, in response to questions about moving from LE to HD, about HD1 systems being somewhat under-powered for some purposes. I suggest you search this duc for them to see if any of those opinions pertain to your situation. If anyone who made those posts reads this, just replying with "I posted one of those" will make it easy for this person to find the information (by searching on the name).

[SuperPuss]

Thank you very much for your informative reply Steve.

I am fairly sure my PC hardware will be fine with HD. If not, that is not a major issue to me. The cost of building a new system for my HD rig will be relatively insignificant. If my current setup works as well with HD as it does with LE, then great.
A friend of mine has a HD rig running PT6.9 so I can get the 6.9 software if I need it. I guess the best thing to do in my case would be to just install 7.x and see how it goes first.

I will definitely do a search on the HD1 power too. I usually run out of busses before I run out of CPU power on my LE rig!! Although, most of these are used for surround routing which won't be necessary on HD. In the meantime, if anyone wants to post a link to HD1 processing power, that would be appreciated.

[SuperPuss]

Hmmm... I have done some extensive searching for HD1 vs LE processing power and cannot find anything. I have tried many different search strings and searched through literally hundreds of search results with nothing!!! I started searching just after making the post before this one and have just stopped now to post this!

If anyone has any links to this information, please post them here when you read this

[nikki-k]

Hi!
Ahhh...the enigma known as LE to HD1...

HD1 is underpowered IMO. I consider an HD2 Accel to be the prime entry point, although with smaller projects (say, 64 or less voiced audio tracks, minimal non-audio track RTAS usage, non-5.1, using ADC long/short) it should be just fine. I am using an HD2 Accel PCIe (Core and process are Accel- this makes a -slight difference- difference; big to me though). I would not want to run sessions larger than 64 voiced audio tracks in 5.1 with decent RTAS usage on non-Audio tracks with ADC Long enabled. I would not want to run a larger than 64 voiced track session in 24/88.2k or higher with genrous RTAS usage on non-audio tracks. I would go for an HD3 for either of those scenarios.

For casual, day-to-day 24 or 16 bit 44.1/48k usage, 64 or less voiced Audio tracks, ADC Long or SHort, and some forthought, I could do 5.1 sessions and be happy and pretty care-free. I personally would not want to try that with an HD1 in 5.1 though. Resources (read as: DSP CHips on those cards) get eaten fast. ADC (automatic delay compensation) LOVES to eat chips when doing 5.1. Simply summing mono tracks to a 5.1 Master (MAin Out) is not a 5.1 session IMO...although it is a 5.1 result, common 5.1 considerations are not being...well, considered. Multi-channel width tracks will begin to eat resources; actually, and basically, take the width and multiply that for how much a mono track will eat. So, a session with a bunch of 6 channel width tracks will literally suck the DSP well dry in what seems like moments if ADC Long is enabled. The DSP to build the mixer would be first, then ADC, and then anything else you do.

I would speculate here on upcoming things, but I have seen recent speculations come up cold (ala NAMM). Instead, I would suggest grabbing that HD Core now. See if it works. But, be prepared to be laying out cash (soon after?) for either an original, non-Accel HD Process (cheap enough used on eBay and the like), or an HD Accel (process) card; beware you will need to use a PCI version, since PCIe is not yet supported, and assuming you will get a PCI HD Core (non-Accel only for PCI), you cannot mix PCI and PCIe HD cards.

Or, wait just a little while longer and see if either someone ehre tries a PCIe XP system and has success and posts here, thus allowing you the peace of mind to do so yourself, supported or not by Digi at that point; or, wait just a little longer than that for Digi to support PCIe officially on XP (hopefully before Vista gets considerations...ugh...)

Hope that helped a little...
Oh- btw- ask questions, even when they might seem stupid. If it is relevent, it should get answered here. (irrelevent questions, such as the meaning of life...well, Monty Python couldn't do it, so why would simple XP users be able to? )

Oh- and BTW- the 192 I/O? Best value IMO. Incredible value. I would HIGHLY consider it over the 96 I/O. Very, very, very well worth waiting and saving the $$ difference in price. I know you mention the 192, but if you considered cutting corners somewhere, this aint it IMO.

[SuperPuss]

Nikki, that is great information and just what I am after.

Ultimately, after reading your post and talking to others I know with HD systems, HD2 seems to be the best place for me to start.
I was considering getting a 96 io but I think, given my plans, it would be much wiser for me to spend a little more and get the 192 io right from the start. If my budget doesn't stretch to HD2 and 192 io, I'd rather get HD1 with the 192, than HD2 with the 96.

At this stage, I'd also rather go with PCI and know I have support. Besides, my PC only has PCI slots. I really don't think this is going to be much of an issue in real world terms for me, especially considering how simple it is to add more power with extra cards later. I am not working on projects the size of the ones at Skywalker sound....yet!! I don't think Digi are going to stop making PCI in a hurry either.

One question I do have is about bouncing 5.1 mixes. I assume there is an option similar to stereo bounces where you can select interleaved 5.1 or individual files? Most of my masters will be sent to my MLP encoder (which requires individual files) for DVDa. The same is true for my DTS and DD encoders.
Is there such a thing as 5.1 interleaved?

I am really looking forward to proper 5.1 panners and control. I am constantly running out of busses in LE and, as you can imagine, doing any kind of 5.1 panning and divergence in LE is just so damn tedious!!

[SuperPuss]

Another question I have that may be missing something important is -

I am under the impression that HD systems can run RTAS plugins on any track. If that is the case then all other 5.1 and hardware processing aside, would a HD1 system not be more powerful than an LE system as far as plugins go? Particularly if a mix of TDM and RTAS can be used in the one session.

An example might be opening one of my current LE sessions in HD. Would that session run exactly the same as far as CPU use is concerned if I did not make any plugin changes? Could I not then expand on that session by utilising the DSP chips and adding TDM plugins?

Perhaps I am missing something vital here. Maybe the whole ADC issue is much more intensive and would negate any of the above benefits, particularly in 5.1 as has already been discussed. These are the things that will ultimately help me decide HD1 or 2 to start with. I have already made up my mind on the interface. The 192 is the way to go for me.

[gerax]

Hello

I've been travelling this same troubled road for a while now...I'm on a maxed out LE rig...on the verge of expanding to surround production...still an HD2 or 3 isn't a justified expense for the kind of productions I'm working on.
As a matter of fact I have the same exact motherboard you are using (an Asus A8V deluxe) which is a champ for stability and expanadbility while being perfectly compatible with HD setups, but I'm using a faster CPU, a 4400 dual core.
My idea is to get a simple HD1 core and a 192 I/O; TDM plug ins won't be as much but I get plenty with RTAS which with a Dual Core CPU work just fine, plus I'd get all of the HD functionality like surround mixing, ADC and expanded tracks and busses, while maintaining everything I already have plug ins-wise. I hope I've not underestimated anything...I've red several posts here on the DUC about similar setups that can be a middle step between an LE rig and a full blown HD...and they can be also expanded down the road with accel or process cards (and a 96I/O for the outboard summing stuff).
If you are planning to go that route I'd do a couple of things to the PC as well, like upgrading to a dual CPU (like 4400 or 4800) and add another Gb of Ram for added response. I'd go with PT7.1 as it's optimized for dual CPUs and really is a lot better than 6.9 (which was great and stable too).

Hope this helps

L.G.

[SuperPuss]

Thanks for your input gerax.

I certainly can't praise Asus enough for this MOBO. It is by far the most stable setup I have ever had of any system, Mac or PC.
A new dual core CPU and some extra ram is definitely something I will invest in with my new HD system. It is a very minor additional expense and should give me awesome bang for the buck.
At the end of the day, with RTAS support, I can't see how HD1 would be less powerful than LE. As I said though, I have no experience with HD and could be totally missing something very important.