"Flat monitors."

[Dean G]

I don't guess, I know.

I take my mixes to electronic stores and listen on various systems.

I go to high end stereo stores and listen.

I put it in varous stock car stereos and listen.
I goto car shows (every friday nite in the mall parking lot) and listen. Also at the local music store PA stage. (They are kind to me because I buy equip from them).

What is implyed by people like where02190 is that unless you have a perfect room with perfect speakers (and mics and converters and amps and pianos, etc) you CAN'T MIX WELL.

Where02190, which Fourplay album did you mix so I can go out and buy it. Or did they just track there??

Old Timer [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[doorknocker]

Originally posted by where02190:
Result: mixes translating to the real world perfectly.
Don't guess, know.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So is the real world flat ?
Seriously, I appreciate these opinions, just a thought here: I mix in my good sounding, more or less average furnitured apartment, no scientifical tests done yet.... My claim is that mixing in an 'average' living room will translate well to the final product being heard in such a room...Anybody??

Andi

[marcusb]

my thoughts on monitoring:

1) consider monitoring a "system" ... it's the coupling of your speakers to the room .. they work in unison with each other to give you "accurate" results, whatever changes you make to one will be affected by the other. Ie. put new monitors into your room, it's gonna sound different obviously ... put a few people, or a couch, or a rug, or some books, or some new gear that's gonna change your monitoring environment as well.

2) you can pretty much mix on any monitor if you know it well enough, sorry newbies experience is the key here

3) a "flat" monitor whilst theoretically possible very rarely behaves "flat" once you put it in a room, unless you mix in an anechoic chamber. IMHO frequency response plots AREN'T the be all and end all, they are good indication of what the speaker is putting into your room but that's about it.

4) to improve your monitoring environment it really is essential to study up a bit on basic acoustics. Auralex have a great article (acoustics 101) that says, in general terms how things work. There's also loads of resources on the net for information on monitor placement.

5) when you are setting up your room make one change at a time and evaluate the success of that change. When it comes to treatment, less is more, don't go over the top on fixing problems you can't explain

just my 2 cents [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

cheers,
marcus

[vonbleak101]

In reply to "So, vonbleak, how does a sweep from 20 to say 4000 Hz sound on your system now?
Flat? "

Yeah, pretty much, i use the new mackie HR624's which are fairly flat, so from there end its pretty good. My room is not perfect so i cant say i monitor in a totally flat environment but im getting to that! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] (Room treatment is on the agenda)

[vonbleak101]

Also, we must take into account that the human ear does not have a flat frequency response, look up the 'Fletcher Munson Graph" So reliying purely on the response graph of monitors is never going to be %100 accurate, but we do our best! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[where02190]

Originally posted by Dean G:
What is implyed by people like where02190 is that unless you have a perfect room with perfect speakers (and mics and converters and amps and pianos, etc) you CAN'T MIX WELL.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is absolutely not at all what I was implying. My opinion is that the more accurate your listening environment is the better starting point you have to reference to. As another poster pointed out, you can achieve a great mix on anything so long as you undestand the limitations and quirks, and are used to it. I've mixed on some real crap, even worse than NS-10's and gotten good mixes because I understood the idosyncracies of the environment.

It is so important to listen to your mixes on as many different systems and environments as possible. I can send to the green room and listen from down the hall, have a crappy old sony blaster, a single mono speaker behind a chair...plus I too go to stereo stores and make 'em play discs for me, all the while cranking up the bass and treble, and any other knobs that can be twisted to the right...cuz when is the last time you saw Joe or Jane average turn anything to the left!!!!!

My "mix blessing method" is to listen in my truck, windows down, in traffic. If it's all still there amongst all that distraction I know I got it right. Occaisional "who's that" comments from other cars is a bonus.

Originally posted by Dean G:
Where02190, which Fourplay album did you mix so I can go out and buy it. Or did they just track there??

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A good friend of mine David Kuhn is their FOH engineer/tour manager, and he recorded a bunch fo shows this spring live via his G-4 Ti powerbook and MOTU interfaces, that we mixed here, as a sort of test run for potential live record from their summer European tour. We experimented with mics and techniques, til we had what we thought was the optimum sound to disk for recording the European tour. I actually never had any band here, just me and the dog mixing and then uploading mixes for them to hear and critique. An ideal situation IMHO.

[rsmith123]

I bought the Mackie 824's due to the recent reviews pointing them out ot be the flatest monitors to come out in quite a while. Even compared to some genelecs.

[rsmith123]

If the room has say a node at 140hz, changing speakers does nothing to correct this. Eqing the monitors does not correct this. Eqing the room, i.e. acoustically treating the room to reduce or eliminate the node does.

Very True. Also, I recently learned something about activating a room. My room is terrible, I put a 400$ roominator kit in and still have a noticeable problem. It was suggested to me by a well known producer, that each room has an activation threshold and that if you keep your volume under that threshold, you can keep the room out of the mix even further.

I don't completely understand it, but it is work. There is a definite advantage to mixing at lower volumes.

[where02190]

A speaker system responds to it's environment. If the environment has inherant characteristics of certain frequencies, these frequencies will be present in the response of the system in this particular environment. Thus the importance of room treatment. If the room has say a node at 140hz, changing speakers does nothing to correct this. Eqing the monitors does not correct this. Eqing the room, i.e. acoustically treating the room to reduce or eliminate the node does.

Personal preferences are the biggest factor in choosing monitor systems. If you are comfortable with them and you are getting good results, no matter what the system, then it is right for you.

This is probably the oldest debate in the industry, and one that has nor never will have one clear defined answer. What works for you is what is best for you. Finding that is your own personal journey. Obviously the advise of others is a great starting place, but ultimately, only you can decide what works for you.

[CCash]

Originally posted by Dean G:
CCash, Thanks for sharing.

Innot sure everyone is so forthcomong about mistakes.

Old Timer

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, well that's what I'm here for [img]images/icons/blush.gif[/img] . I can advise - from experience - that studio furniture can be a troublemaker. For anyone interested in overhauling their control room, I would highly suggest trying to keep your work surface as minimal and open-air as possible.

When my table loses its luster, I'll probably try to implement a setup that uses only small racks on rolling stands that I slide over as I need them.