Grid Lines - Slip Mode vs. Grid Mode

[Mt.Everest]

Hello

First off, this is not an issue only in PT 6.4. It has been with Protools for years but its really getting to me on this particular project so I thought I would mention it. I wish there was an option to leave the blue Grid Mode lines drawn in the edit window while in Slip Mode as well (only the color would turn to gray as is normally does), because alot of times I move things around manually but I like to see the grid for reference. Depending on zoom level, the grid drawn in Slip Mode changes-- sometime it follows the 8th note, sometimes only the quarter or bar.

Anyway, the BIG issue that is really hurting me on this Blues project, is what happens to the grid when using a triplet or dotted 8th grid. Alot of these tracks use a triplet feel so I use a triplet grid. However, the 'gray' grid drawn in Slip mode still refers to a straight quarter/eigth note groove and makes it very hard to move notes around freely while trying to reference some sort of related grid. I wish the gray Slip-Mode grid would reflect the fact that I am in a triplet or dotted 8th feel.

Anyone else know what Im talking about

MT

[JGuth]

Exactly. Really one should be able to choose Grid or Slip mode and independently choose or not choose "snap to grid". In PT we get grid and snap to grid inseparably which is a mess
in exactly the cases you describe and has been driving me nuts also for years.
also the algorithm for how the grid varies in slip mode could be much better.
For me the best case would be to have the grid on all the time and just be able to switch on and off the snap to grid feature-it would be simpler and require fewer keystrokes in the long run for all users.

[Mt.Everest]

For me the best case would be to have the grid on all the time and just be able to switch on and off the snap to grid feature-it would be simpler and require fewer keystrokes in the long run for all users.

Hmm, never thought if it like that. Good idea. A keystoke for snap to grid on/off, but the grid lines are always there. Maybe even a preference to show and hide grid lines. Im glad Im not the only one who deals with this issue.

MT

[Rail Jon Rogut]

You can turn the grid display on and off by Command clicking on the time line header in the edit window (when in Grid mode).

Rail

[Mt.Everest]

Right. But I was thinking of having the grid always showing whether in Grid or any other mode, and then a command to turn it on and off globally. And then the actual Grid Mode would just be what one would use to work with cursor and regions snapping to the grid lines. I use the visual cues of the grid alot (like for eyeing up musical pre and post rolls) but dont actually want to be in that mode and its restrictions.

MT

[Vinylizor]

YES!!! Been winding me up for years!
The grid settings should show permanently whatever mode you are in.
If this bugs you when using PT in Slip ala virtual Tape Machine you can always turn the grid settings to off.
The grid should also be visible through audio parts. If you've recorded a band to a click tape machine style you often don't have any empty tracks to show the grid on. Having to create blank tracks either side of audio that you are editing just to be able to see grid values is just plain stupid.

[jeremyroberts]

For me the best case would be to have the grid on all the time and just be able to switch on and off the snap to grid feature-it would be simpler and require fewer keystrokes in the long run for all users.

Yes -- and let's even model this after macdraw or quark or photoshop

This requires TWO commands:

1. Show grid/Hide grid
2. Snap to Grid on/off

There are times when I am working totally free - no timebase at all -- i do NOT need to see any grid. I would like to turn it off.

I think if the program would use 3 modes instead of 4 [slip, shuffle, spot] and 2 grid modes as mentioned, it would be WAY more intuitive and productive.

But this will never happen, because it's hardwired to digi control surfaces... when we design our perfect DAW, we can do it this way.

[JGuth]

It should happen though. Trying to work in a meter with triplets is totally annoying in Pro Tools. I always want to slide things small amounts relative to the grid and if I need triplet 8ths it's just not possible. The tool suspend grid modifiers are too clunky and there's not one for selections and all could be replaced with one "snap to grid" toggle. The grid visibility should be independent of snapping to the grid-ie a separate "snap to grid" command, then we could add snap to grid in shuffle mode and avoid the current complexity of having to make gridded selections in grid mode, then switch to shuffle to shuffle, then switch back to grid for the next edit. It's just cumbersome. And tying snap to grid to displaying the grid makes no sense.

[Howardk]

One thing that helps:

"To temporarily suspend Grid mode and
switch to Slip mode while dragging a region,
hold down the Control key (Windows) or
Command key (Macintosh)."

[PTUser NYC]

1) I agree that grid lines should behave the same in grid and slip modes.

2) Jeremy is right (again) that there are two different properties at work here, which each require their own key command.

3) An inelegant workaround is to have an audio track, click track, derived from whatever audio you like that you can use as a grid. You drag the track next to the one you're editing. This can be the main rhythm guitar track if you want a "groove template". Maybe you took the best bar of the rhythm guitar, and cut it up too, so only the attacks were preserved - that'd be a good guide track.

Be careful using MIDI to derive your click or guide track. Latency is one big issue, but you can compensate for that. Worse yet, is slop, the difference in the latecy each time. if I was creating a groove template from MIDI notes, I'd take a good listen to the audio after the fact, and see if it needed tightening up at all.

I'm a singer. I keep a 57 ready to go, hooked up to an input all the time. Whenever I need something to groove better, i sing the groove, and use the vocal track as a template to line up the audio. This works really well for rubato, and tempo changes, ritards etc. its also very helpful in programming drums, and fills.

4) Pro Tools needs a new feature. I want to do all this fancy quantizing on audio snippets, but I want to quantize the attack of the note, not the whoosh of the kick drum pedal before the strike. I realize that with beat detective, I can set a threshold, and cut the audio into snippets, then quantize the snippets, and then open out the attack of each to get the preceeding air. But each piece of audio is now quantized to the moment that it corssed the same volume threshold. harder and softer kicks actually hit at different levels.

Right now, Pro Tools uses the left edge of each audio file as its location point. What if the two were seperate? One thing is the left edge of the file, another property is the locator mark, which could even be outside the audio piece, like 8 ms before it in the case of a snare drum's room track, which was to maintain its relationship with an earlier dry track? Even if it was within the audio snippet, I'd take it!

Let's say that you could use the I beam cursor to quickly click and spot the attacks of a whole bunch of files. Now, when you quantize them, they are moved so that the markers you identified are conformed, not the left edge.

These markers could be set in group mode too, so that drum tracks would stay referenced together correctly.

Well, until I get that, I can still just line each piece up by eye to a groove template reference audio track.

Forget beat detective, just look at the track zoomed in, and select across from an area of just before anything happens to tyhe same part of the following event, cut and paste. Do this for every OTHER hit, and you're done quickly. Then you just use the hand cursor in slip to line up what you see as the true attack of the sound to the groove template. It won't sound mechanical, that's for sure. And if you do it quickly by eye, you may be a few sample off of perfection. a ms here or there doesn't mean that much if the groove template is very tight to begin with. It results in less slop than I'll bet your (our, my) MIDI rig does right now?