Eleven Rack Patch Change Time - G-System

[CReedZAT]

Hey there everyone, my first post.

I've owned an Eleven Rack for a while now. I bought it because it was only $100 more than Pro Tools 10 by itself so that worked out nice for me. I used it a few times to record parts on my Band's EP and liked it.

Anyhow, I recently decided to overhaul my live guitar rig with a TC Electronic G-System and ended up coming to the conclusion that my 11R would compliment it extremely well. The G-Sys could control the 11R via MIDI and I'd have a REALLY versatile rig. I'm getting a really fantastic sound from the 11R and I'm happy with my patches but I have just one problem...

I'm a metalish guy and I play with fast, sudden patch changes. With my old set-up (Moen GEC-9, pedals and amp) I could switch from my Dist sound to my clean sound instantly; so fast that my hands would never stop moving. I could press the switch exactly as my first note in the new patch was played and it worked great.

With the G-System controlling the 11R with MIDI Patch Changes, I can't get this to work at all. When I activate a new patch, my sound quickly dims and fades back in. It's pretty fast but it's still very much too slow for me. When I'm playing 16th notes and press the switch I lose the first one or two notes. This is something I do regularly and I need to be able to get to my new sound INSTANTLY without the rig swallowing those couple of notes.

I've researched this thoroughly and read lots of posts from this forum and others but I still haven't found an answer. The manuals don't seem to help either. Some people suggest there is a 50-60ms delay in the 11R changing patches but that it's not noticeable. Some people have said it is completely instant and that they have no latency problems but I seem to be miles away from that. Measuring the speed of the change is pretty hard, I could do it with Pro Tools I suppose, but I feel like I'm experiencing more like 100-150ms of delay. The rapid fade-in, fade-out is pretty distracting and gross as well.

Am I the only one that is finding this debilitating? Are others having similar problems, or can you (as some posts seem to suggest) continue playing through a change with no loss? Does anyone have any hints on how to reduce the effects of this change? Is this a G-System thing (I doubt it) or do others on other platforms have similar problems...?

It's my only real problem with the 11R but it's big enough that it's making me reconsider.

Cheers, Chris.

[AvidEditor]

Hi Chris, welcome to the forum. Here's a recent thread on this topic: http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=332106 There will always evidently be a drop out. For seamless mid song changes I used an expression pedal with the Multi FX Function in the Pedal effect (in the chain it's next to the last behind Meters). If you want zero sound drop out this is the way to do it, but it's not instantaneous (it takes the amount of time to press the pedal from toe to heel or heel to toe) and you are limited to two tones per song.

[CReedZAT]

Thanks for that, that thread was helpful. I suppose that Multi-FX exp pedal could work and with something like this (Nose Expression Stomp) you could do it without the toe-down delay.

That being said, it kind of defeats the point. Adding another cable to the pedalboard and making changes way more complex by moving eleven rack control away from the G-System is pretty uncool. I was really hoping there was some way to do this without resorting to cheeky tricks. Sigh

[derker]

Funny to see this popping up again. Yeah, 11r has some latency when switching patches. I wish the Avid guys would chime in and let us know if maybe theres a way to minimize the lag (maybe using the same models/fx blocks in different patches..who knows) This is actually one of my biggest gripes when it comes to performing with 11r. I play some fast stuff sometimes and its irritating when you work hard to nail the changes only to get cut off by your modeler. :P

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by derker

Funny to see this popping up again. Yeah, 11r has some latency when switching patches. I wish the Avid guys would chime in and let us know if maybe theres a way to minimize the lag (maybe using the same models/fx blocks in different patches..who knows) This is actually one of my biggest gripes when it comes to performing with 11r. I play some fast stuff sometimes and its irritating when you work hard to nail the changes only to get cut off by your modeler. :P

There is not much you can do. Keep the midi setup simple-make sure its nothing there actually adding latency to the MIDI message. But overall if you need speed (as I think has been gone through on DUC several times before) don't load a different rig patches, try to do what you need by turning on or off or modify effects within a patch. You can do an awful lot that way...

Darryl

[brianiac5150]

OP and subsequent responders: I have not completely read all the other linked info related to this (again) to make sure this isn't said and then repeated by me here, however, no biggie if so...right?

The least latent method I've found (as a result of some post within this forum - and I think it was from Avid personnel) is to not change the amp and/or configuration, only the amp settings. Por ejemplo: if I'm riffing out on some serious metal and need a clean tone for the somber mid-section, I simply use amp of choice - let's say SLO100 OD - and alternate the pre and master (not direct knob names) settings to accomplish the OD differences, while maybe turning on and/or off FX which do not move position within the patch change. This works well for me in most, almost all amps.

Hope you're able to get this working well for you. I'm still lovin' on my Eleven Racks - yep...have two, as I simply couldn't resist the recent lower price and four included plug-ins - and hope it'll continue to grow on you, as well. A G-system with it must be an amazing setup, too. Enjoy!

[derker]

Originally Posted by brianiac5150

The least latent method I've found (as a result of some post within this forum - and I think it was from Avid personnel) is to not change the amp and/or configuration, only the amp settings. Por ejemplo: if I'm riffing out on some serious metal and need a clean tone for the somber mid-section, I simply use amp of choice - let's say SLO100 OD - and alternate the pre and master (not direct knob names) settings to accomplish the OD differences, while maybe turning on and/or off FX which do not move position within the patch change. This works well for me in most, almost all amps.

Do you mean having separate patches (program changes) with the same blocks with different settings? Or are you referring to using instant access MIDI CC messages?

[Darryl Ramm]

You want simple CC messages only. That way there is no software in the rig to load.

Darryl

[brianiac5150]

Originally Posted by derker

Do you mean having separate patches (program changes) with the same blocks with different settings? Or are you referring to using instant access MIDI CC messages?

What I'm referring to in my original post is your first option, however, for me, both options work very well. I use a Rocktron MIDImate, although a MIDI change is a MIDI change, so it shouldn't be any different with another pedal, but I could be wrong.

Keep in mind: I'm not playing at lightning speeds, though, and I don't typically have a bunch of FX in my chains (presets).

[tpp]

What I'm looking for is the ability to have a Fender Twin with a delay and some reverb. Then change to a Mesa Boogie with a different delay and a huge wall of reverb and have the first patch naturally fade out as if I were in the studio.

It should at least be able to do that. Has anyone hacked into an 11R to see if it's something you can change manually?