Another patchbay question..PLEASE HELP!

[smc108]

Ok, let me start by saying I know NOTHING about how patchbays work as I just received my first patchbay yesterday. Please help with configuration if at all possible and forgive my lack of knowledge!

Here's what i'm working with:

PT LE 8
002 desktop
Neutrik NYS-SPP-L1 1/4" TRS patchbay
Presonus Digimax FS
ART MPA II
Blue Robbie Pre
Rackmounted FX unit
RME ADI-8 AD/DA
Also have a few keyboards that I would like to connect through the PB

Before the patchbay, I am using a DB-25 cable out of the RME into the direct outputs of the preamps. The RME is ran ADAT into the 002, so those corresponding channels were inputs ADAT 1-8 in PT.

So, would anyone be able to guide me in the right direction in how to set up my rig? Please be specific if at all possible (i.e., plug RME 1-8 into top rear 1-8, plug Presonus pre into rear bottome, etc...).

I also understand that I'll have to buy a TRS to F-XLR Snake to plug my microphones into. One of my main goals into easily interchange between mic pres with a simple patch.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[FordVan]

Originally Posted by smc108

Ok, let me start by saying I know NOTHING about how patchbays work as I just received my first patchbay yesterday. Please help with configuration if at all possible and forgive my lack of knowledge!

Here's what i'm working with:

PT LE 8
002 desktop
Presonus Digimax FS
ART MPA II
Blue Robbie Pre
Rackmounted FX unit
RME ADI-8 AD/DA
Also have a few keyboards that I would like to connect through the PB

Before the patchbay, I am using a DB-25 cable out of the RME into the direct outputs of the preamps. The RME is ran ADAT into the 002, so those corresponding channels were inputs ADAT 1-8 in PT.

So, would anyone be able to guide me in the right direction in how to set up my rig? Please be specific if at all possible (i.e., plug RME 1-8 into top rear 1-8, plug Presonus pre into rear bottome, etc...).

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

If you are running preamps to inputs:

Set patchbay to half normalled configuration. Preamp outputs on the top jacks, interface inputs to the bottom jack.

Full normalled patchbays are seldom used. Usually, you will use it in Half-Normalled, or Pass-Thru modes.

Pass-Thru means that there is no connection between the top (back) and bottom (back) jacks unless you use a cable to patch them together via the front jacks. You would want to use this for any kind of effect processor, or dynamic process where these processors are not going to be hooked up to a certain input/output of another device regularly.

Half-Normalled is where the top (back) jack routes to the bottom (back) jack with no patch cable (on front jacks) needed to complete that. The only way to interrupt that connection is to plug in a cable to the bottom jack on the front panel of the patchbay. You would want to use this for connections that you would make often, such as preamp outputs to interface inputs. You can of course re-route the outputs of the preamps to other interface inputs via the front jacks of the patchbay if you need to change the routing. Of then though, you would usually use things as is, and just record enable the proper interface input for recording in your DAW I/O section.

Many possibilities with patchbays. They are there to complete connections you would normally have to make, and to make re-routing easy. It would behoove you to read as much as you can about possible scenarios. There are articles out there that go into great detail about how you can configure your patchbays. I have just listed a few examples above.

[FordVan]

Also, if plan to put your microphone outputs on a patchbay, DO YOUR CONNECTIONS WITH GREAT CARE!

If you have phantom power engaged on a mic preamp, and you plug a TRS cable into that mic preamp input, you run the risk of creating an electrical arc on your patchbay from the momentary short you create by pluggin in the cable. MAKE SURE that you have phantom power OFF on your preamp before plugging microphones into it via a TRS patchbay!

[guitardom]

Originally Posted by FordVan

If you are running preamps to inputs:

Set patchbay to half normalled configuration. Preamp outputs on the top jacks, interface inputs to the bottom jack.

Full normalled patchbays are seldom used. Usually, you will use it in Half-Normalled, or Pass-Thru modes.

Pass-Thru means that there is no connection between the top (back) and bottom (back) jacks unless you use a cable to patch them together via the front jacks. You would want to use this for any kind of effect processor, or dynamic process where these processors are not going to be hooked up to a certain input/output of another device regularly.

Half-Normalled is where the top (back) jack routes to the bottom (back) jack with no patch cable (on front jacks) needed to complete that. The only way to interrupt that connection is to plug in a cable to the bottom jack on the front panel of the patchbay. You would want to use this for connections that you would make often, such as preamp outputs to interface inputs. You can of course re-route the outputs of the preamps to other interface inputs via the front jacks of the patchbay if you need to change the routing. Of then though, you would usually use things as is, and just record enable the proper interface input for recording in your DAW I/O section.

Many possibilities with patchbays. They are there to complete connections you would normally have to make, and to make re-routing easy. It would behoove you to read as much as you can about possible scenarios. There are articles out there that go into great detail about how you can configure your patchbays. I have just listed a few examples above.

with due respect, your explanation and definition of normalling is incorrect.

full normal WILL pass the audio to the bottom port when nothing is plugged in and will cut off the signal to the bottom port when something IS plugged in.

half normal will work the same except when a patchcable is plugged into the front of the port it will STILL send signal to the bottom port as well.

thru or off is exactly that. will not pass audio to the bottom jack unless you have a patch cable between them. you could use this for pieces of gear that just have an output or input and be able to maximize the amount of ports you have on your bay.

typically outputs on top row, inputs on bottom row. if you think through this logic correctly it can quickly aid in setup time. normal your row of converter INPUTS to your gear OUTPUTS and your gear line INPUTS to converter OUTPUTS. then in pro tools you can setup your i/o settings so you can have your inputs and outputs labled by converter jack or even the piece of gear normalled to it.

but he is correct about phantom power and patchbays. i keep my mics at the patchbay normalled to the inputs of my preamps. i have it setup so i rarely have to patch them. i use the proper input on my snake for the preamp i want to run it through. but i am VERY strict on shutting phantom off after using it. it will have a bleed off period as well where the +48 may be shut off but current is still in the line, so dont just shut it off and plug right into it.

[smc108]

Thanks for your help everyone. I think i have a better understanding, but still unclear on something. I'm looking to be able to plug in a microphone to my snake, then be able to test out various preamps with only changing a patch cable (if that makes any sense). Let's say i'm tracking vocals for a client. I would like to be able to simply plug in the mic and "test out" my various preamps and of course the A/D channel will remain the same. So, in theory, i would plug a microphone cable into (let's say snake channel 1), then this would go into the bottom rear input on my PB? Then, let's say i have 3 preamps... I would make a connection from the top rear of my PB to the input of preamp (do this x3 for each preamp). But, then where does my A/D converter come in to place? This is where possibly i need to patch somewhere on the front of the PB? I hope this makes sense...somewhat

[guitardom]

Originally Posted by smc108

Thanks for your help everyone. I think i have a better understanding, but still unclear on something. I'm looking to be able to plug in a microphone to my snake, then be able to test out various preamps with only changing a patch cable (if that makes any sense). Let's say i'm tracking vocals for a client. I would like to be able to simply plug in the mic and "test out" my various preamps and of course the A/D channel will remain the same. So, in theory, i would plug a microphone cable into (let's say snake channel 1), then this would go into the bottom rear input on my PB? Then, let's say i have 3 preamps... I would make a connection from the top rear of my PB to the input of preamp (do this x3 for each preamp). But, then where does my A/D converter come in to place? This is where possibly i need to patch somewhere on the front of the PB? I hope this makes sense...somewhat

to do what your saying in theory will not work. you can change 1 patch cable but you will have to either do a second patch or change your input into pro tools.

your snake would come in on the top row of pb, its an output
your mic pre inputs would be normalled to these outputs.

mic pre outputs 1-x on top row of pb (outputs)
to converter inputs to get into pro tools

you can now easily cross patch snake 1 into mic pre in 3 or whatever.
but from here you would not recieve input into pro tools. you would have to
a: cross patch the mic pre "3" output into converter 1 input. this is assuming you started your testing w mic 1 to pre 1 to converter 1.
b: change input in pro tools to accept converter channel 3.

so you would have to patch your snake output 1 into the pre you want to try next, then do either a or b. once again, be aware of phantom power if you using it.

does this help???

[guitardom]

to go a bit further:

i keep my snake outputs and my pre inputs at the end of one of my patchbays, since i wont jump them a lot. but here is a quick layout of how i run one of mine

channel 1-10 top row mic pre/various gear line outputs
channel 1-10 bottom row converter inputs

channel 11-18 top row converter outputs
channel 11-18 bottom row mic pre/various gear line inputs

channel 19-24 top row snake outputs
channel 19-24 bottom row mic pre inputs

i do run 2 patchbays and use a lot of outboard gear and converters, but this is a basic simple layout. in this layout everything is in full normal.

[FordVan]

Originally Posted by guitardom

with due respect, your explanation and definition of normalling is incorrect.

full normal WILL pass the audio to the bottom port when nothing is plugged in and will cut off the signal to the bottom port when something IS plugged in.

half normal will work the same except when a patchcable is plugged into the front of the port it will STILL send signal to the bottom port as well.

thru or off is exactly that. will not pass audio to the bottom jack unless you have a patch cable between them. you could use this for pieces of gear that just have an output or input and be able to maximize the amount of ports you have on your bay.

typically outputs on top row, inputs on bottom row. if you think through this logic correctly it can quickly aid in setup time. normal your row of converter INPUTS to your gear OUTPUTS and your gear line INPUTS to converter OUTPUTS. then in pro tools you can setup your i/o settings so you can have your inputs and outputs labled by converter jack or even the piece of gear normalled to it.

but he is correct about phantom power and patchbays. i keep my mics at the patchbay normalled to the inputs of my preamps. i have it setup so i rarely have to patch them. i use the proper input on my snake for the preamp i want to run it through. but i am VERY strict on shutting phantom off after using it. it will have a bleed off period as well where the +48 may be shut off but current is still in the line, so dont just shut it off and plug right into it.

Explain to me how my explanation is incorrect? I never gave an explanation of full-normalled because it just isn't used that much. My explanation of half-normalled is spot on.

[FordVan]

Originally Posted by FordVan

Half-Normalled is where the top (back) jack routes to the bottom (back) jack with no patch cable (on front jacks) needed to complete that. The only way to interrupt that connection is to plug in a cable to the bottom jack on the front panel of the patchbay.

[Bill Denton]

Patching on the input side of preamps is kind of tricky...one little mistake and you can blow your phantom power or trash a ribbon mic. I know, I know, you'll always turn of phantom power before you do any patching...except when you forget to, like when you have a client breathing down your neck.

To keep things simple, here is what I would do...

Get an XLR-XLR snake with a stage box, where the mic cables are plugged into XLR connectors on a steel or aluminum box. The XLR connectors on the other end would then be plugged into the inputs on your preamps. This way you would not be "patching" phantom power, and if you do forget to turn it off, the way an XLR connector is made, plugging/unplugging it with phantom power on doesn't hurt anything (unless you plug a ribbon mic into a connector where phantom power is present). But always turn off phantom power before doing anything!

You would then bring the output of your preamps to the top row on your patch panel. If you want to, you could bring the inputs to your 002 to the bottom row, with the "input" and "output" jacks set up as full normal.

Assume preamps "A", "B", and "C", with their inputs coming from the stage box. Each preamp is full normalled through your patchbay to the inputs on your 002, with "A" connected to input 1, "B" connected to input 2, etc.

To begin with, we will not use any patch cords...

Set up 3 mono tracs in Pro Tools, with one input from input 1 on your 002, another input from input 2, and the third input from input 3.

To test multiple mics with a single preamp, say preamp "A", you just plug and unplug each mic in turn from the "A" connector on the stage box.

To test a single mic with multiple preamps, plug the mic in turn into the "A", "B", and "C" inputs on your stage box.

Now, lets suppose that for whatever reason, you want to use preamp "C", which is full normalled to input 3 on your 002, but you want the preamp to be connected to input 1.

This is where full normal is valuable...you would plug one end of a patch cord into the "C" output on the top row your patch panel, then plug the other end into the 1 input (located below the preamp "A" output) on your patch panel.

Voila...preamp "C"is now connected to input 1 (and preamp "C" is not connected to anything).

By using the method I have outlined, you will have both complete flexibility along with phantom power safety.

I hope this helps, and if any of this is unclear, post your questions here and I'll get back to you...