What kind of IDE HDdo i need to Digi001 ????

[Park Seward]

A SCSI card and drive would be the best performance choice. An internal IDE drive is the best price/performance ratio choice.

You bet your money and you pick your choices. My Digi 001 is more like a hobby for me and I was surprised at the prices of the SCSI solution. For one-tenth the cost I got something that is working fine for me.

If I was using the system in a commercial environment, I would use SCSI.

[lwilliam]

Hi, Brad. I agree with most of your points although IDE drives will suffice for 98% of the 001 users. However, I do need to correct one earlier point you made: SCSI-2 (or IDE) and IEEE 1394 are NOT derived or related to each other at all.

SCSI (all forms) is a parallel transfer technology where you get 8 or 16 bits wide running down a multi-core cable terminating in a multi-pin connection.

IEEE 1394 (Firewire) is a SERIAL technology where all bits travel single-file down a thin cable. FWIW, USB is serial and, like SCSI, IDE is parallel.

Serial and Parallel technologies are quite different. Serial transfers can often go MUCH longer distances than parallel transfers. Hence, ALL long distance (i.e., phone lines) use serial technologies.

Because of the smaller voltages involved with IDE transfers, the distance is extremely limited (I believe it's 18 inches max), which is why you don't find any external IDE drives.

Just for some more info (once I get started... [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]). The next generation of IDE drives (ATA/133) are even faster than the current generation (ATA/66 or ATA/100). Maxtor is also generating strong interest in a SERIAL ATA technology to replace the existing parallel technology. I would expect to begin seeing these serial ATA drives within a year or so.

SCSI technology is becoming quite dated (I installed SCSI-2 drives in Novell servers back in 1988. The high-end isn't SCSI anymore, but is fiber channel. The next generation of IEEE 1394 (Firewire) will also be capable of 400-800MBps which is quite capable of handling broadcast video and multi-channel audio simultaneously.

Note that virtually all the newer technologies are using serial transmissions, not parallel. It is much easier to get high-speed serial connections in sync, than trying to keep 8 or 16 bits aligned down a long cable.

As long as one backs up their data to a 2nd IDE drive or to an external storage medium (CDR, DVD, etc), I personally feel they're pretty safe. Eventually, ALL drives fail.

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: lwilliam ]

[where02190]

BradLyons, we run dueling 40gb IBM Deskstar drives and 001 in a dual 500mhz G-4 in a very active commercial facility (40+hrs a week) and have had 0% failure. Utilizing the Mac Care Unit utilities package and a schedule of regular maintainence, we expect many more years of this same performance. We easily swap out drives for different client in a matter of minutes, and the drive costs are about $130. (Check outpost.com for the best prices)
www.npstudios.com

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: where02190 ]

[lukemaniak]

Hi all.
Thx for all the replies !

So an internal, ATA 100, 7200 rpm will work in my G3 ???
Maxtor or IBM Deskstar ?
What about, Seagates ??

-Maxcap: Is the Western Digital HD you mentionated ATA 100 ???

-Crookedsound: Yes..I have an adaptec 2940 scsi card, that I’m not using in any system….but I already heard that there are many issues between Digi 001 and Adaptec 2940, is that true ???? but I have to agree that I like the idea to spend less money using IDES, most cause I live in Brazil and scsi drives are very expensive here….

Thx guys….
PLEASE, KEEP THE IDEAS COMING !!!
[img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[BradLyons]

You are correct in that internal IDE will work for most users out there, I for one am one of them.... BUT I also have to replace the drives every other year as I run them hard. But that is still better than paying $1500 per year in keeping my (5) ADATs running Firewire is a bridge technology that uses IDE drives. I may have said Firewire is a subset of SCSI-2, but I meant it is a subset of the SCSI-3 standard. Also known as IEEE 1394, Firewire is a new high speed data exchange protocol developed at Apple. Occasionally it is referred to as "serial SCSI" because it is a serial protocol and conforms to SCSI standards as well. It is now a common interface on new digital video equipment and is beginning to be used in audio as well. FireWire is fast: it starts at 100 Megabits per second and goes on up past 400 Mbs, easily handling the bandwidth required for a 30 frame-per-second 640x480 pixel datastream from a prosumer video camera. FireWire supports asynchronous transfers, as well as isochronous transfers so that a stream of video from a video camera can co-exist on the same FireWire bus with another sending device, yet the bus will still carry the video images continuously without discontinuities. Another benefit of FireWire is that it is a hot swappable technology and allows 63 devices on a buss with auto termination and identification.

[where02190]

lukemaniak, yes ATA 100, 7200 rpm will work in your G3 just fine. The IBM Deskstars have performed flawlessly for us, and can be had for $125+shipping from outpost.com for a 40gb. Don't go bigger, or you will run into latency issues. If you have questions feel free to e-mail me directly via our website.
Good Luck, and beware of salesman with big pitch.
www.npstudios.com

[lwilliam]

Yes, Brad, Firewire (IEEE 1394) is part of the SCSI-3 spec (and so is Fiber Channel). I don't usually get too riled on the board here, but I need to add this...

When some sales guy enters the forum with a condescending attitude, gives out incorrect technical information, pushes a particular product line, and then states categorically that anyone who uses something else doesn't "know any better", it doesn't make you or your company look good (ref: "they don't know better..." in your first post.) You have no idea of my background or some of the others here - and I take offense to that.

I also haven't looked at your other 65 posts, so I don't know if this is a trend or an exception to your posting methods - maybe it was just a single instance of choosing less than ideal words.

Regardless of that, you don't seem to acknowledge that many of us who have choosen the drives we use, have done so with a full knowledge of the trade-offs - not because we "don't know better".

Alarming generalizations such as: "they put out EXTENSIVE heat which causes system lockups and hard drive failures..." are totally useless as they contain no real information.

The heat of a drive is nowhere near as hot as the CPU. I've seen a lot more plugins and extension conflicts cause system lockups than a hard drive, and I've seen more than my share of hard drive failures caused by things unrelated to heat, like having an external drive case fall on the floor, or a SCSI cable shorting out (or yanked out) on the external drive. Since Firewire drives are in theory, hot-swappable, yanking the cable out shouldn't cause a problem with them, but it sure does with SCSI drives.

I note you didn't mention any downsides to external drives. How about NOISE? External drives are a lot noisier than internal drives, and that may be important to people running 001's in a single room studio - which I would bet is a large majority. Try mic'ing an acoustic guitar with the whir of a 7200RPM drive and another fan 2 feet away in a rack.

Another downside to external drives is that they have another power supply, which needs another outlet and is another power drain on the circuit running your studio. Obviously, in a pro studio this wouldn't be a problem, but in a home studio, you may want to not have to worry about the extra outlet, or what sequence you turn your equipment on or off (drive first or computer first), or having to use a power strip instead of your keyboard's on/off switch. Having a simple setup may far outweigh any potential long-term reliability issues; especially when the computer will probably get upgraded before the MTBF has approached even the 10% point.

In some cases, an external drive MIGHT be a better setup for a certain situation - it MIGHT be the right choice for that person, in THEIR studio, with THEIR setup and working methods. If you can isolate the noise and don't mind paying more for essentially the same performance, then an external drive might be fine...especially if you plan to swap drives often...and I will grant that swapping an INTERNAL drive between clients isn't practical.

As for installing an internal drive, I can refer anyone to an authorized Mac dealer who will install a 2nd drive in a system you purchase from them for no extra charge. In fact, that's how I bought my system - 2nd drive (Maxtor) pre-installed - and I have no vested interest in the dealer at all.

I'm sure the markup on Glyph drives is a lot more than a Maxtor or IBM drive, because I don't think you can buy Glyph drives at MacMall, but you can buy heavily discounted IBM and Maxtor drives there. Besides, if Sweetwater sells an external Glyph drive with a system, then the tech people there don't have to open the case to install it and they can ship the complete system faster - just grab it from a stack of Glyph drives and box it up.

I can buy a spare IDE drive (or two) for the price of a Glyph. It's not that they aren't good cases/drives/PS's, they're just overpriced, and have other downsides that are important for some people.

If you check the digi-approved drives area, you'll see the following:

*Minimum speed of 7200 RPM & average seek time of less than 10.0 ms

*For 24 tracks, drives must be dedicated for audio (internal or external)

Those specs are met by MANY ATA/drives; and that's what Digi recommends.

You need to know AND present both sides of the story if you want to be considered an informed "consultant" instead of a sales weasel. Sales weasels get ripped to shreds here pretty quickly.

Maybe you're a really nice guy who knows his stuff and is trying to be helpful, but it isn't coming across that way. I'm just stating a specific objection to a specific issue in this thread.

If you have a response to this, Brad, it might be better to take if offline. I've said everything I need to on this thread.

[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: lwilliam ]

[seiun]

You should get a Maxtor. Because Maxtor sounds sort of like Mac.

I read this one and then, just for fun, I opened my Mac up and felt the hard drive - just to see if it was putting out EXTENSIVE heat. It's not. It's cool as a cuke, and I've been editing all night long. It's a Western Digital, 40 gig. 7200 RPM. Works great. I paid $139.00 for it.

Personally, I think the main reason hard drives fail is because people abuse them: moving the computer when it's on, shutting down and re-booting immediately - stuff like that. A Glyph is probably a cool thing, but I think their 9 gig drive goes for around six hundred bucks. I'd much rather own four or five 40 gig drives for that kind of money. You're gonna do backups either way, right? Buy a spare and spend the rest of the dough on some SM57's. My two cents.

[where02190]

lwilliam, you said a mouthful. Thanks for verbalizing what I was trying to say in a much more direct fact stating way.

"You should get a Maxtor. Because Maxtor sounds sort of like Mac." says Seiun. Save the jokes for people who give a sh*t. Although your info was quite valid to the post, it was overshadowed (for me anyway) by this useless gibberish.

Lets keep the sales pitches out of this. Salesfolk, if you want to post your comments and suggestions, try doing it anonymously. You'll get a lot less flack from us real world users.
www.npstudios.com

[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: where02190 ]

[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: where02190 ]

[seiun]

Sorry, Officer. It was just a joke.