Comparison of HD, LE and M-Powered?

[darrena]

damn. i thought i had found if not a silver bullet for one of the few remaining issues i have with committing to PT M-Powered, it was at least a stainless steel bullet. guess not

[peppertree]

Originally Posted by darrena

damn. i thought i had found if not a silver bullet for one of the few remaining issues i have with committing to PT M-Powered, it was at least a stainless steel bullet. guess not

Well I do use Pro Tools professionally (while I'm not here procrastinating doing my tax returns) using LE/MP...but if I was doing electronica for fun or whatever you do I would look to something else (perhaps Ableton live). Pro Tools is necessary for session interchange and I have gotten used to it these last ten years. I use ATA even though the whole thing makes me curse...

[darrena]

I hear you. Maybe I should just stick with Acid. Or invest a little more and get Cubase. But if they just fixed this one thing (latency, delay compensation), you'd recommend wholeheartedly?

[jojo99]

Well, wait a sec...
Can you elaborate on why you were thinking of moving to PT for your soft synth/samp work? I mean, the track limitations alone would be enough for one to put PT low on the list for this kind of work.

And how and why is Cubase a better option than what you have now?

You have Acid, correct? What version and build?
Is something not working correctly...or (what)?
I have Acid Pro and have no problems getting work done with it. Go nuts tracking soft synths/samp tracks, track live over that...all without latency issues (and my sys is a simple athlon dual-core, nothing fancy).

What audio interface are you running btw?

[darrena]

I have AP7 (the latest build). I've been an Acid Pro user forever. I love the workflow, and it's very easy to use. I have some issues though:

1) multicore scaling isn't great right now. they're getting better, but for now i'm finding there's just no way to mix what want without doing track bouncing with FX, etc.
2) VST compat is tough. cubase is "the" VST host. Pro Tools is "the" RTAS host. Devs don't do much testing in other hosts. Not Acid's fault really, just the way it is.
3) latencies: I have to crank my Profire 2626 WAY up to 2048 samples whenever I use VSTi softsynths.
4) MIDI implementation is weaker than in PT8 and Cubase 5.
5) I would love that pitch correct stuff that's in PT8 and Cubase 5.
6) Included FX aren't fabulous and I don't want to spend thousands on Sonnox, Waves, etc. or UAD2 plugs to compensate (plus I heard UAD cards don't work that well with Acid).

[jojo99]

I have AP7 (the latest build). I've been an Acid Pro user forever. I love the workflow, and it's very easy to use. I have some issues though:

1) multicore scaling isn't great right now. they're getting better, but for now i'm finding there's just no way to mix what want without doing track bouncing with FX, etc.

"they're getting better"...huh?

Ok, we're this far into the thread - what's your system? Describe in detail please. What apps are running upon bootup too?

I've had some pretty demanding soft synth/samp sessions while scoring, and aside from some snafus here and there, I'm not seeing the problems you're insinuating (and I have a simple old dual-core at the home studio. Nor are 4 other co-workers who have fast quad's).

Are you dead sure you don't have a different issue (system/audio card/throughput)?
And if so how do you know?

First make sure your sys is setup and streamlined for optimum results for this kind of work (if this doesn't make sense or you're unsure - then it probably isn't. Resolve this first).

How many soft-syn/samps can you run at once before experiencing problems or having to render/bounce?

Again, do any of the projects involve Omnisphere?
* I invite you to look up the real world responses and troubles from serious users in regard to omnisphere and it's demands.

For other vi's: Are you utilizing any of the vi's streaming methods? (in many cases, this should be avoided and turned off).

Just curious, would you happen to have a site for samples of this kind of work you're doing? Maybe one of the more sys demanding sessions?

2) VST compat is tough. cubase is "the" VST host. Pro Tools is "the" RTAS host. Devs don't do much testing in other hosts. Not Acid's fault really, just the way it is.

Huh? Acid or Cubase aren't perfect, but I haven't experienced any serious issues in using my vsti's in Acid (nor cubase). This statement makes no sense, please explain.
What Vsti's are you using? Which ones are causing this statement?

3) latencies: I have to crank my Profire 2626 WAY up to 2048 samples whenever I use VSTi softsynths.

Hmm... How are you setup for monitoring btw? Describe.

Possible driver issues here, or sys (again)...or,...

You're not going to like the other answer,...
Other than a hard drive for backup or vid capture/etc., even for minor project studio I would NEVER (ever-ever) incorporate a usb/fwire audio interface in my studio. They look fantastic on paper - but real world, no way. All they are are problems (for anyone who's using their studio to any nominal/taxing degree). If you're dicking around, doing minimal tracking, or going out to 2-8track some band with your laptop then sure, they're ok, really convenient actually...but not for anything really taxing/demanding (which, based on your questions, seems to be the case). A 26 i/o fwire device? - never. But hey that's just me and many others work I've worked with.

Geeze, at the home studio I still have my 3 modified delta 1010s (not LT vers) that I cannot let go of - they just flippin' work, in all the varied scenarios they've been tasked with.

4) MIDI implementation is weaker than in PT8 and Cubase 5.

Cubase and vsti/midi editing - yes. PT? No - can't agree with you on that.
Acid, isn't incredible either, but I've yet to see anything that prohibited scoring/writing.

PT and midi/inst tracks it's been noted as it's weakest link by professionals (and has been for years). Doesn't mean PT sucks or it won't ever improve (christ I hope digi reads these things)...it just isn't right now (yes, even ver 8).
Now if you're tracking in the studio and talking PTHD (or in some project studios, PT mpwrd/LE) - then PT can and will do what it does best (and allow you some degree of interchange between studios).

* although, again - I still prefer the "freedom" that other apps offer with tracking (vegas being better for a project studio, reaper works, and I guess cubase is ok,although I hate it's UI, etc..etc.). The "tier limitation/nickel and dime" business model with digi has run its course I'm afraid (but hey...it's also why we've seen PT Mpwrd enter the equation, so at least that can be said).

5) I would love that pitch correct stuff that's in PT8 and Cubase 5.

Really? Ok, this isn't important as there are much better routes (one being: hire people who don't need pitch correction, or learn to sing (or don't sing)

6) Included FX aren't fabulous and I don't want to spend thousands on Sonnox, Waves, etc. or UAD2 plugs to compensate (plus I heard UAD cards don't work that well with Acid).

With quality soft synths/samps/plugins - you get what you pay for (and it isn't found bundled in PT le/mpwrd, cubase, acid, sonar...any of them).

If you're serious and "working" with your work, then this statement is sort of ridiculous. Sorry, I gotta keep it real. You're setting yourself up for disappointment I think. Whoever sold you on this probably also sold you that 26 i/o fwire audio devices won't exhibit issues when it comes to serious/demanding work.

Either way, if I were you...before I spend a dime on another application, I would go through the system, remove all possible suspect/problem issues (take a reality check on that audio device I'm afraid) and go from there.
I don't think the answer lies in buying a new application for tracking (in your case), but that's just a guess as we aren't there to see everything.

good luck

[darrena]

Wow, this is deep! I'll try to answer everything but call me on it if I miss something!

First, I think I said (maybe I didn't). I'm a song writer (music minor) but have a very technical background (bs in comp sci). This is not about me being a producer or trying to run a studio or anything. But I am not that financially challenged, and the tech as it is today can enable someone like me to make a track that sounds "almost pro" right out of my own basement project studio.

Second thing you should understand is that I'm not a hater. I have used Acid forever and like it a lot. But I think it's time to explore other options because I'm hitting some limitations and seeing some great progress being made in other DAWs.

System is a Core2Quad Intel Q6600 2.4GHz machine. Interface is a Profire 2626. Aside from a MIDI controller and a RODE NT1, that's pretty much all I have hardware-wise.

I'm running Vista 32, but it's a clean install (no crapware, no antivirus, etc.), I have disabled glass (so it looks like Windows NT) and most unneceessary system services, and done the standard optimizations. But really, that's not the bottleneck. At idle, my CPU and disks sit at 0%. It's just that all the load goes on one core and I have 3 cores sitting idle! Especially because I use high-CPU FX on busses.

Synths aren't the worst, because generally you can freeze tracks. Omnisphere is my favorite, but when I was using the Reaktor Spark core sound pack that thing used CPU like it was going out of style, even at idle!

The problems come from mostly FX chains inserted on busses. I like to use dynmics plugs on each buss, different ones for different sounds, but these usually include compression, limiting, sometimes EQ and other effects like tape warmth. So they can be a bit CPU intensive.

On VST compat: Steinberg wrote the VST standard and everybody tests with Cubase. You use VSTs in other hosts and they sometimes work right sometimes don't. That's my experience. And others I have talked with experience the same thing. Sometimes VSTis forget their presets, etc. Sometimes the PDC doesn't work right, etc.

On the audio interface, I bought it because I started out with a plan to do everything on my dual core laptop. At this point, it's a sunk cost. Maybe in the future I will go for a PCIe card or something. Good advice. FWIW, I have disabled most of the I/O on 2626 (you can turn them off in banks of 8) because i don't need them. Pretty much my monitoring is that I plug my powered monitors directly into the 2626. I used to use a Yamaha 01v mixer with ADAT in there, but I took it out because the 2626 did everything I needed by itself.

I should note that in Reaper, I was able to get SUBSTANTIALLY lower latencies without glitching than in Acid. And with just about any synth, in Acid, I have to crank the buffer way up. Not sure why.

On MIDI implementation: I have not used PT8 yet so you could be right here. However, I did watch the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsY_i...C5EF9C&index=2 and it *looked* like it was much richer than what exists in Acid. But I don't *hate* MIDI in Acid. One thing I hate, though, is having to put the VSTi parameter automation on the synth buss track instead of in a lane on the MIDI track, which it looks like Pro Tools does. This comes into play a lot when you want to have evolving sounds so you're tweaking synth parameters over time. Actually, in general, the VST automation implementation experience is pretty rough. Again, I haven't used PT, but it LOOKED like that was considered better.

Your comments on pitch correction could use a little more positive tone ;-) a) I'm not a pro and like to sing on my own stuff and do so without pitch correction but it'd be nice to have it rather than re-taking a track occasionally. b) don't they use at least some degree of pitch correction on pretty much everyone you hear on the radio these days?

On included FX: I had heard that the FX included with PT and Cubase were quite good. Cubase 5 especially. Maybe I'm wrong there? I do use some 3rd party plugs for reverb and dynamics/mastering, but if I didn't have to, I wouldn't.

On your closing statement, I guess i could look into an audio card solution instead of the PF2626, but didn't peppertree just say that he uses PF2626 and M-powered in a professional context?? I'm having trouble rationalizing!! ;-)

[darrena]

BTW: whew, that was a lot of work

[peppertree]

Firewire either works or it doesn't...and when it doesn't, it's because of the miserable drivers and chipsets. If the 2626 is working on your machine then it works and you will get all 26i/o if you want. Bandwidth is not the issue, it's programmer incompetence plain and simple. Some of that incompetence was clearly in the creation and enforcement of the spec.

(A spec should be an automated test suite that everyone is required to pass in order to claim support of. Everything else is annotation. But I digress... )


The only problem with firewire once things work is that the system latency can drift from session to session. This can be a problem in some situations if the DAW and/or plugin vendor aren't handling that right. For ATA users, this means you have to re-ping every time you open a session. I think most DAWs shouldn't have a problem but I would have to test them.

People will seize upon facts like that and screech mightily to rationalize their existing investments in non-firewire things. But plenty of professional work is done on firewire interfaces. All of these systems have problems, some of them have more people rationalizing why they did and didn't purchase them, is all.

[darrena]

Well what this says to me more is that using a DAW without delay compensation is probably completely unacceptable for me rather than i need to buy new hardware ;-)