Master inserts are post-fader? Was: L1+ on Master = clipping

[s2n]

I use the L1+ on the master to control overs. The output ceiling is set to -0.5dBFS. The 888 1&2 outs don't indicate clipping, yet my master fader does. Why is that?

I have also noticed in performing tests, when the master fader is pulled down considerably (-12dBFS), the L1+ doesn't seem to be fast enough to attenuate all overs...some transients are allowed to pass. Is this normal operation for this plug-in?

[darla]

I have almost the same problem. Is not the L1 a hard limiter? Say I have it setup on the stereo bus, with a ceiling of .5 or 1 & a very moderate threshold. I still get overs. Regardless of where the release time is set. Any ideas?

[s2n]

On the digi001 system I recently upgraded from, the L1+ worked like it was suppose to work. It's not the case in the TDM mixer.

[Mark Haliday]

I hope this message is not irrelevant to your situation, but did you know that master track plugins slots are *post* fader ? In case you are not familiar with this terminology it means that these plugins are inserted *between* the Master fader and the output pair

this means that if you are clipping on the output bus itself you should either lower all faders connected to that output or simply take the master fader down a few db's. L1 won't prevent this clipping from going on unless you lower the gain before.

By the way I recommend reading the L2 litterature that gives excellent general information about level problems that can sometimes arise
http://www.waves.com/download/L2.pdf

As for the difference between LE and TDM, it may have something to do with the technologies involved : They look and feel similar but what is actually going on behind the scenes is *very* different. Its a question of dsp chips against power PC processors.
Good luck [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[s2n]

Having the plug-ins post-fader just doesn't make sense to me. Example: If I stick a compressor on the Master out, perform a fade, then that fade is being acted upon by the compressor. To me, it makes more sense to have the output of the compressor being faded i.e. pre-fader master bus insert. The same would apply with the use of a limiter on the master output.

Does this mean I have to route all channels to a stereo aux input, insert a limiter (or whatever) on that aux and then send it's output to the master fader?

Or, is there a pre- post-fader preference option someplace? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[snoopy]

s2n

You got it. Kinda sucks doesn't it?

[s2n]

Or, I can insert limiters on each disk track. Eeeewww!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Mt.Everest]

HOLY ****!!! I had NO idea that the Master Fader Plugs were POST ****IN fader!! What kind of crap is this?

All this time that I have been Mixing/Mastering at the same time, when I do master fader fades this has been changing the response of the compressor/or L1?!?! Now wonder i the fades always sounded weird to me!!
I used to use the Finalizer for running my mixes thru live and doing auto fades with that, which it does AFTER all the dymanics processing.

What kind of crap is this?? Is it true? As one TRYING to compromise and give PT a chance for full mixes I have been having all my mixes sound DIFFERENT as I would do fades? For those first 8dB or so (where its most noticable) my overall mix processing is changing???

Obviously now I realize Im going to never use Master Faders and just use Aux Inputs as masters. What a hassle tho..

Does anyone know if there are any downsides to using Auxes instead of Master Faders??

Once again I am STUNNED that this is the way PT handles the master faders.

Some make me feel better please..

MT

P.S.
Ive been lovin Protools lately but this has seriously enraged me. As a self-coined "power user" I never thought to check on this in the manual because it just seems like the last thing any 'pro' software would do, and I never looked at plugins while i was doing fades..
ARRGHGHRRGH!!

[CCash]

relevant discussion here
http://duc.digidesign.com/cgi-bin/ub...c&f=2&t=005623

[Mt.Everest]

Ahhhhhh....

I feel like an ass.. That makes perfect sense.. D I T H E R...

Not possible to do correctly if the Plugin is pre fader...

I guess the best of both worlds is to buss everything you would normally buss to a Master Fader to an AUX master. Apply plugs there.. THEN have that go to a Master fader and put only the dither on that fader. This way your master compressor doesnt get affected by your fade, but you still get the benefits of dither..

ok, um, im back to loving protools again.. sorry for the rant above Digi.. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

MT