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  #121  
Old 06-21-2003, 08:13 AM
froyo froyo is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Hello. I forgot something else on the blind test. Do this periodically, maybe every six months or 12 months. The first few CD's years ago sucked. Digidesign's hardware has gotten better every year. You get my drift.

As for the initial question, is the Digi 001 discontinued, here is an interesting tidbit. If you call the 800 number for product information you will get one of those phone menus. The categories on one are TDM, Mbox/001 and 002/002 Rack. When you go the Mbox/001 they describe the Mbox only. Not even a whiff of the 001. Interpret or infer from that what you will.
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  #122  
Old 06-21-2003, 08:26 AM
B-Grade B-Grade is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Well, I probabbly did bastardize or butcher Mr. Neve's wording. Something about intermodulation. The little tiny up and down motions created by the high frequencies make the lower frequencies go up or down (that is relative to the null point). I'm trying to avoid techno babble at all costs here.

As for the blind tests, we do them at the school where I work at all the time. Blind. Just about every student can hear the difference. This is using a Radar with an SSL 4000 G+. Genlec Monitors. An even bigger change is using a sony RMX-D100 console at 44.1 vs. 96, again using the radar. (the sony don't do 192). AES to and fro. Radar as master clock. Adam Monitirs. The whole board opens up. I have yet to find a student that cannot hear the difference. I actually hate the board at 44.1. Boring.

When we do the true blind tests, we use two radars, each fed from the bus matrix. Same gain, same pre, mic, etc. We used to lock them for this, but someone (wisly) pointed out that the tach required to drive the slave would act as jitter, so that was chucked. So, MMC to the rescue.

Acoustic guitars and drums seem to be the biggest deal. Makes sense with the complexity of their harmonic content.

And yeah, we start out with the tests on recordings already done and don't tell the students which is which. Then we recreate the test as a good excercise in signal flow. Plus then I get to play drums for an hour!
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  #123  
Old 06-21-2003, 08:48 AM
clorox clorox is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Quote:
Originally posted by Chaasm71:
Tell ya what, guys. Why doesn't somebody (with the capability) make up an audio file at 96kHz (what the content is will probably start another massive thread like this one!). I'd do it, but I only have a little old 001, so I'm a techno-peasant! Anyhow, take that file, make a copy and downsample it to 48kHz (i.e., take out every other sample). Give each file a generic name, like File A and File B and post a link to them. Then, people with appropriate technology can listen to it and compare the two in a blind experiment. Everyone can post here which one they liked more. At the end, we count 'em up and see if the answer is significantly different from 50%. If not, then it's in your head. If so, then I'll get my slide rule out and do some thinking! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Charlie.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point is that no one would be able to tell the difference between two "identical" 96kHz and 48kHz samples, BUT

you might be able to tell the difference between two 48kHz samples if one of them had been converted and processed at a higher sampling rate and then sampled down to 48 kHz as the last step.
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  #124  
Old 06-21-2003, 08:56 AM
clorox clorox is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Quote:
Originally posted by B-Grade:
Well, I probabbly did bastardize or butcher Mr. Neve's wording. Something about intermodulation. The little tiny up and down motions created by the high frequencies make the lower frequencies go up or down (that is relative to the null point). I'm trying to avoid techno babble at all costs here.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's essentially what happens in my little wave diagram. Two very high frequency waves combined to essentially add volume to a low frequency wave at half their frequency. Isn't that a natural phenomenon?
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  #125  
Old 06-21-2003, 12:53 PM
B-Grade B-Grade is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

[/qb][/QUOTE]That's essentially what happens in my little wave diagram. Two very high frequency waves combined to essentially add volume to a low frequency wave at half their frequency. Isn't that a natural phenomenon? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Yup, which is why capturing it at high res is part of the battle, and repro the other. doing this up down thing, and even the filtering negates some of this which does happen in the real world. Some filters clain to be higher order then others for the 192K stuff.

And right on for the 48K thing. Most processes dither when doing a conversion rather than just taking away every other sample.
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  #126  
Old 06-21-2003, 02:13 PM
Chaasm71 Chaasm71 is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Guitates, I am not offended by your $.02. I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do think that your calling the people on this thread "uninformed" is...well...inaccurate and unnecessarily insulting. I'd say there are some pretty insightful and clever people posting on this thread. Why don't you just present your ideas and leave it at that? There is NO reason to put others down? Just because someone has a different idea or view than you is no reason to attack them personally. I've been pretty impressed with the way most people on this thread have conducted themselves. Let's keep it up, alright?

We are having a discussion, and suggesting ideas. At no point in this thread have I ever told anyone that they are wrong. I've simply talked about the laws of physics which I learned at university over the course of 7 or 8 years and practiced for another 4 at work. I have also never said "I'm right and you are wrong" to anyone here. I've just pointed out that some peoples' ideas don't agree with the laws of physics as they are currently understood, ok? Doesn't make the ideas wrong, it just shows a lack of consistency which is worth investigating.

As for Analog vs digital, that is a WHOLE different discussion. If you want to start a thread about that, which would also probably be interesting, do so. But let's try to our discussions focused (note, the irony that this thread is suposedly about digi 001 being discontinued is not lost on me!).

Charlie.
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  #127  
Old 06-21-2003, 02:32 PM
Chaasm71 Chaasm71 is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Now, to discuss the harmonic overtone series... Guitates (PS - glad your CD sounds great! I've got CD envy!), you say we should go study the harmonic overtone series and you suggest that all answers lie there. Well, I have studied it. The harmonic series pops up in lots of different physical problems. I can derive the series by modeling the vibrations of a clamped string or the oscillations of air in a tube or...etc. Ok? So what? All that the harmonic overtone series gives you are the frequencies of the normal modes of oscillation of certain physical systems. It still comes back to what can we hear. You suggest that humans hear (or otherwise percieve) sounds up to 200kHz. That's fine, you are entitled to believe that. I'm happy to live in a society that let's people hold their own view. But... my view (which I'm also entitled to have), is that all rigourous experiments done with human test subjects to date shows that the average human being's hearing range is 20Hz to 20kHz. Can some people hear higher? Probably. The range is an average. And, in fact, lots of people hear considerably less that 20Hz-20kHz because as we get older that range decreases. Given that the average person can only hear up to 20kHz, I don't believe that there are people who can hear 10 times above this amount.

Finally, you mention that when you sample at higher frequencies (192kHz for example) you capture higher frequency content. That's true. I agree completely. However, what you don't mention is that right after the DA converter is a low pass filter that kills everything above the audible range. So, you might have sampled at a higher frequency, but the converter filters kill that info anyway! So, you aren't getting more. Please understand, I'm not saying that the converters don't sound different, alright? I'm just saying that the sampling rate ain't the reason why.

Charlie.
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  #128  
Old 06-21-2003, 02:43 PM
PEEL PEEL is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Well put!
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  #129  
Old 06-21-2003, 02:43 PM
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Park Seward Park Seward is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Quote:
Originally posted by guitates:


Analog sounds Wonderful. Right..Why?

1 of many reasons is HARMONIC OVERTONE Frequencies up to 200,000 HZ with the Analog domain...OK?

Please do not be offended with my $.002... [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ae you saying that there are microphones, mixers, recorders and speakers that can capture and reproduce 200kHz?

Please list any you can since I would like to buy them!

Neumann told me that their mics roll-off 6 db per octave after 20k. What mics are you using to capture 200k?
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  #130  
Old 06-21-2003, 04:44 PM
guitates guitates is offline
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Default Re: Digi 001 discontinued?!

Charlie--You gotta relax man...I apprieciate your sugestions...We Can agree to disagree...

Park--It is Not the equipment...It is the TAPE...

A trumpet sounds like a trumpet because of it's unique harmonic overtones...etc...

You start with fundamental tones, and the overtones are produced above the fundamental, at the Octave--the 12th, the 2 octave and up to multiple overtones.

I am saying (not my opinion, but many Audio Student Profesionals have suggested that) your Frequencies rising up from any fundamental, are Restricted by your sample rate in the Digital Domain, and un-restricted (rising upwards to 200,000 in rare cases) by analog TAPE.

YES, We cannot pick out a 50 khz tone from a tone generator, with our restricted (20k) hearing, but the overtones COLOR the Quality of the warmth and richness.

I am only trying to Clean up all these Random sugestions with this understanding of why people will go to 192 sampling...For A Higher Quality of Audio...

The Mastering Lab stated without reservation, that 192 comes the closest to Analog Quailty...These people Master the Most Famous of Artists...Go online and see...

Also, ANYONE who can afford to record and produce with HD 192 would NEVER use a 20k brick wall cuttoff...they would master directly to analog...

I am just trying to help, not debate, or slander...

Hey, the truth sets you free...huh? [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
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