Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > Pro Tools 12

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-12-2016, 04:11 PM
ChazC ChazC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne (UK Ex-pat)
Posts: 418
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Hellfire View Post
I'm sure I'm on my own with this but whatever. I think it's so stupid for you guys to be pissed that some HD only features went to Vanilla. It's not like we got new features. We just got hand-me-downs that you guys have already have for years. What you really/only should be pissed about is that you guys paid a lot of money for NO new features. That definitely makes sense. But to be mad because vanilla got some old features is weak. You would have still paid the same money for nothing either way. Vanilla getting some old HD only features did not devalue your HD setup for the fact that the features we got were not things that people buy HD for, IMO. I personally wouldn't have bought an HD license just for those features and I doubt anyone else did it ever would.
I think you're forgetting that a lot of people who didn't want or need HD hardware did need a lot of the extra software features that HD had back in the day. A lot of the features we all consider 'standard' in other DAWs just weren't in LE.

That's why the various Toolkits were available. Avid railroaded the last of those users onto HD when they decided to scrap the CPTK. At that time, the only way to keep features was to go onto the full HD version. Now of course it's a completely different picture but hindsight is a wonderful thing, which makes Avid's attitude & decisions even more galling to those who did buy (in effect) an HD license just for the features of the software.
__________________
Chaz

Shifting Sands Audio
www.shiftingsandsaudio.com
soundcloud.com/shiftingsands

Asus X79 Deluxe | i7 4930K @ 4.1 | 32Gb Ripjaws CL9 GBLZ | Radeon R5 230 | Win7 Pro (64) | 256Gb Samsung 850 SSD | 2x 1Tb Seagate SATA | 250Gb Samsung EVO SSD | 128 Samsung SSD | Antec 650W | ProTools 11.3.2HD, 10.3.9HD, 12.5 | Cubase 9.0.20 Pro | Nuendo 8 | Studio One 3.2 Pro | RME UFX | 2x Octopre Mkii Dynamic | Alphatrack | DTouch | Logitech G510 | Kensington Trackball | Yamaha UX256
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-12-2016, 05:12 PM
DJ Hellfire DJ Hellfire is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,072
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChazC View Post
I think you're forgetting that a lot of people who didn't want or need HD hardware did need a lot of the extra software features that HD had back in the day. A lot of the features we all consider 'standard' in other DAWs just weren't in LE.

That's why the various Toolkits were available. Avid railroaded the last of those users onto HD when they decided to scrap the CPTK. At that time, the only way to keep features was to go onto the full HD version. Now of course it's a completely different picture but hindsight is a wonderful thing, which makes Avid's attitude & decisions even more galling to those who did buy (in effect) an HD license just for the features of the software.
And how much longer do you think they should have been able to keep forcing people into HD to get features available in competitors native DAWs? That's was probably just as bad as robbery as the current upgrade with no features.
__________________
www.HellfireBeats.com

UAD 2 Apollo Quad w/Thunderbolt 3, UAD 2 Satellite Octo TB3, UAD 2 Octo PCIe, Avid S1, Neve R6 500 Chasis, Neve Portico 511, Neve Portico 551, Dangerous DBox+, Focal Trio6 Be, Neumann TLM49, Akai MPC 2000XL, Akai MPC X, Mackie 1202VLZ Pro, Akai Advance 61

Pro Tools 2021.12

Mac Pro 7,1 2019, 8 Core, 48GB RAM - MacOS 11.6.2

16" MacBook Pro 2021, M1 Pro, 16GB RAM - MacOS 12.1

27" iMac, Late-2012, 3.4GHz i7, 24GB RAM - MacOS 10.15

Last edited by DJ Hellfire; 06-13-2016 at 05:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-12-2016, 05:51 PM
WAXLTD WAXLTD is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 152
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Hellfire View Post
I'm sure I'm on my own with this but whatever. I think it's so stupid for you guys to be pissed that some HD only features went to Vanilla. It's not like we got new features. We just got hand-me-downs that you guys have already have for years. What you really/only should be pissed about is that you guys paid a lot of money for NO new features. That definitely makes sense. But to be mad because vanilla got some old features is weak. You would have still paid the same money for nothing either way. Vanilla getting some old HD only features did not devalue your HD setup for the fact that the features we got were not things that people buy HD for, IMO. I personally wouldn't have bought an HD license just for those features and I doubt anyone else did it ever would.
You bring up some good points, DJ Hellfire. I actually think a lot of people agree with you. You've gone straight to one of the main issues at hand. One of the main things that frustrated a lot of HD users was the fact that in order to keep running the expensive hardware they already bought, they had to upgrade to the latest HD license to be current. I know for our studios, we would happily be using Vanilla, except our HDX hardware requires an HD license. We can't run Vanilla on the hardware we already bought. Wish we could!

Imagine if Apple released a new OS with all these amazing new features for $99 and it would run on any machine that wasn't made by Apple. Even a PC! But if you wanted to upgrade your tricked-out Mac, which you had already paid thousands of $ for, you had to buy a separate piece of OSHD software that had basically the same features for $599. The $99 version wouldn't run on your computer. So now you have to pay $599 to keep running the latest software on your computer. If you wait longer though, that price goes up to $999. Frustrating, right?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-12-2016, 06:25 PM
zedhed's Avatar
zedhed zedhed is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 3,935
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Hellfire View Post
I'm sure I'm on my own with this but whatever. I think it's so stupid for you guys to be pissed that some HD only features went to Vanilla. It's not like we got new features. We just got hand-me-downs that you guys have already have for years.
Interesting how you've taken this personally. It's not that HD users are "pissed' at vanilla users for getting something extra, it's about being an HD user getting charged extra for a product that has been devalued with nothing extra added.

The angst is clearly pointed at Avid, not their customers so no need for you to take our concerns as a personal assault.
__________________
Too much blood in my drugstream

Motherboard: Gigabyte Z690 AERO D
CPU: Intel Alder Lake Core i9-12900K
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15S
RAM: Corsair Vengeance DDR5 64GB (2x 32gb 5200MHz)
Drives: 2 x Samsung 980 Pro 2TB NVME PCIE 4.0 M.2 SSD (Record & Samples)
1 x Samsung 980 Pro 1TB NVME PCIE 4.0 M.2 SSD (OS Win 11 Pro)

GPU:Gigabyte GeForce RTX 3060 12GB GDDR6 PCIE 4
PSU: Corsair HX Series HX850 Platinim
CASE: Fractal Define XL R2
PT 11HD (v11.3.2) Omni s/pdif <> AxeFxIII
HD 96I/O

Last edited by zedhed; 06-12-2016 at 07:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-13-2016, 03:10 AM
Marsdy Marsdy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: England
Posts: 2,201
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Hellfire View Post
I'm sure I'm on my own with this but whatever. I think it's so stupid for you guys to be pissed that some HD only features went to Vanilla. It's not like we got new features. We just got hand-me-downs that you guys have already have for years. What you really/only should be pissed about is that you guys paid a lot of money for NO new features. That definitely makes sense. But to be mad because vanilla got some old features is weak. You would have still paid the same money for nothing either way. Vanilla getting some old HD only features did not devalue your HD setup for the fact that the features we got were not things that people buy HD for, IMO. I personally wouldn't have bought an HD license just for those features and I doubt anyone else did it ever would.
I don't see much resentment from HD guys that the vanilla crew are getting HD features. I can see why HD guys are annoyed at not getting new features although they have been publicly "promised" by Avid.

Personally I think there should be complete parity and ONE version of Pro Tools. I guess that would make a compete mess of Avid's subscription model though.
__________________
Dave Marsden
UK
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-13-2016, 03:29 AM
noiseboyuk noiseboyuk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 1,839
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChazC View Post
I think you're forgetting that a lot of people who didn't want or need HD hardware did need a lot of the extra software features that HD had back in the day. A lot of the features we all consider 'standard' in other DAWs just weren't in LE.

That's why the various Toolkits were available. Avid railroaded the last of those users onto HD when they decided to scrap the CPTK. At that time, the only way to keep features was to go onto the full HD version. Now of course it's a completely different picture but hindsight is a wonderful thing, which makes Avid's attitude & decisions even more galling to those who did buy (in effect) an HD license just for the features of the software.
Yes, this. The removal of CPTK was a shamelss cash-grab, with zero benefit to the user. Old wounds I realise, but one can't help compare how much richer CPTK users would be now, with absolutely identical functionality.

Good OP. I doubt we'll get any response from Avid though - I've seen no evidence that they listen to anything here, take notice of anything at Ideascale, or even listen to functionality improvemetns that have come up through support. I guess they figure pro users who have HD will simply keep paying up year on year despite being completely ignored. From the PT Expert poll, looks like they're right too.
__________________
Guy Rowland
www.guyrowland.co.uk
www.sound-on-screen.com - Original audio clips of movies, TV shows and games, licensed as regular production music.

PT 2024 Ultimate; W11 Pro; Ryzen 9 7900; 64gb RAM; RME Babyface; UAD Quad Satellite USB; GTX 1050i
Macbook Air M2; 24gb RAM
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-13-2016, 04:38 AM
eesn eesn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: london
Posts: 157
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseboyuk View Post
Yes, this. The removal of CPTK was a shamelss cash-grab, with zero benefit to the user.
Yes, this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseboyuk View Post
I guess they figure pro users who have HD will simply keep paying up year on year despite being completely ignored.
This. Infuriating.
__________________
pt 2019 ultimate, artist control v2, rme fireface ucx, scarlett octopre, izotope rx, logic pro x, ableton live, adobe audition, i7 16gb osx 10.13
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-13-2016, 05:10 AM
KV626's Avatar
KV626 KV626 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Paris/Montreal
Posts: 450
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
Personally I think there should be complete parity and ONE version of Pro Tools.
+1. No more HD vs. Vanilla, just "Pro Tools". $99 a year for everyone (or $200 with support/plugs).
__________________
Mac Pro 5,1 (Mid-2012) 12-core 2 x 3.3 GHz / MSI RX 560 / 40GB ram / macOS 10.14.5 / Pro Tools 2019.5 / Logic Pro X 10.4.4
Arturia Keylab 88 Presonus Faderport 8 MOTU 896 iPad Air 2 w/ PT Control
NI Komplete Ultimate 11 • Albion One • Soundiron Choirs • Pianoteq • Analog Lab • VSL SE/Chamber Strings • etc
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-13-2016, 05:30 AM
DJ Hellfire DJ Hellfire is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,072
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

Quote:
Originally Posted by zedhed View Post
Interesting how you've taken this personally. It's not that HD users are "pissed' at vanilla users for getting something extra, it's about being an HD user getting charged extra for a product that has been devalued with nothing extra added.

The angst is clearly pointed at Avid, not their customers so no need for you to take our concerns as a personal assault.

I'm not taking it personally. I'm just pointing out that some of you are angry at the wrong thing. HD was already "devalued" when the features were available in competitors native DAW's for $200-700 for several years prior to 12. In order for Vanilla compete and have value, it needed these features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy View Post
I don't see much resentment from HD guys that the vanilla crew are getting HD features. I can see why HD guys are annoyed at not getting new features although they have been publicly "promised" by Avid.

Personally I think there should be complete parity and ONE version of Pro Tools. I guess that would make a compete mess of Avid's subscription model though.
In my original post in this thread, I was mainly talking about the comment below, and several other comments made in numerous other threads since 12.1. I happen to agree with the OP's letter 100%. But comments like the ones below, I happen to disagree with when the "devaluing" is blamed on Vanilla getting HD features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zedhed View Post
I'm surprised you see any extra value considering the once HD only features, that went to vanilla. Another sign of Avids desperation in trying to keep up with their competition while sitting on their hands.

Indeed; hardware aside, HD has been de-valued.
__________________
www.HellfireBeats.com

UAD 2 Apollo Quad w/Thunderbolt 3, UAD 2 Satellite Octo TB3, UAD 2 Octo PCIe, Avid S1, Neve R6 500 Chasis, Neve Portico 511, Neve Portico 551, Dangerous DBox+, Focal Trio6 Be, Neumann TLM49, Akai MPC 2000XL, Akai MPC X, Mackie 1202VLZ Pro, Akai Advance 61

Pro Tools 2021.12

Mac Pro 7,1 2019, 8 Core, 48GB RAM - MacOS 11.6.2

16" MacBook Pro 2021, M1 Pro, 16GB RAM - MacOS 12.1

27" iMac, Late-2012, 3.4GHz i7, 24GB RAM - MacOS 10.15
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-13-2016, 08:29 AM
nigelpry's Avatar
nigelpry nigelpry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Home
Posts: 2,166
Default Re: 2016 Letter to AVID from PTHD user

As an ex Music Production Toolkit owner who upgraded that to Complete Production Toolkit, pretty much EVERY HD feature I paid those ridiculous toolkit prices for is now in vanilla. The thing I paid for more than anything else was the omf/aaf import and export, which was cascaded down as early as PT9.

The only things I used in HD that are not in vanilla are the extra trim automation modes and some of the other automation modes. I very occasionally need surround.

But Avid have lost me as far as upgrading to HD12, I just wasn't prepared to be suckered into the annual HD pricing. For PT12, I've stuck with my vanilla licenses.

These days, PT is less than 50% of my work. I do most of my midi work in Cubase any way, PT just isn't up to the job. A fair proportion of my work is taking forward projects started by people in Cubase or Logic, and only some of that is worthy of taking the time to convert to PT.

Unfortunately for Avid, the world has moved on and their software just hasn't kept pace.

In particular, Avid has allowed the other old DAWs (Cubase, Logic, DP etc), which all started life strong on MIDI and weaker on audio (no audio originally for Cubase, and for Logic's ancester Notator), to gradually chip away at PT's extra audio features, while Avid has put zero effort into ramping up its MIDI functionality.

Avid has had to cascade down HD features, otherwise vanilla sales would have completely collapsed. What is missing is anything new to keep HD a premium product.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if cloud collab, as part of Avid Everywhere, didn't start life intended as a HD only feature, only for Avid to realise during its gestation period that restricting it to HD would not generate enough revenue to justify the development costs.

I really don't think Avid has a strategy for HD going forward. The things that people are crying out for are all features already available in other DAWs at much less cost.

Can you imagine the outcry if folder tracks or extra midi features were made HD only?

Other things that might be added as HD only would be premium features currently in other apps or plugins, perhaps a melodyne like facility, or Wavelab style full CD authoring and mastering. I guess most people needing that kind of stuff already have it, so they'd be a little underwhelmed. Same with the throwaway of rented "Pro Series" plugins.

I suppose the real question for HD'ers is this ....

What killer new features are you waiting for in PT (and please don't say stability, we all want and need that), that you think are not so fundamental to allowing it to compete with other DAWs that already have something similar, that Avid could get away with restricting it in such a way.

When you bear in mind that for vanilla owners to get those few new features they'd have to buy hardware to get the HD software, it's unlikely to generate an upward rush to HD.
__________________
Mac Pro 2009 with 2010 firmware, 12-Core 3.46ghz, 64gb RAM & working Thunderbolt, OS 10.14.6 and Windows 10
iMac 2012 27", 3.4ghz i7, 32gb RAM OS 10.14.6
Digi 003 Console for control surface only, Focusrite OctopreLE and MOTU Traveler for extra analog-ADAT conversion, UAD Apollo Quad Silver with Thunderbolt card, Apollo x4 and pci-e Octo, Adam A77X monitors.
Pro Tools 2022.4, Media Composer 8.9, Sibelius 8.7, Cubase Pro 11, Wavelab Pro 11, Logic Pro X 10.5.1, Mainstage 3.
Various apps, soft synths, FX plugins.
Plenty of hardware synths, rack gear, microphones etc.
And then there's the studio ;-)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Avid @ NAMM 2016 Avid General 0 01-22-2016 11:20 AM
NAMM 2016 Avid New Products ? zavid Pro Tools 12 10 11-29-2015 11:54 AM
Letter to Avid accentaudio Pro Tools 11 78 01-22-2015 11:23 AM
An Open Letter to Avid from a user/instructor sonicboost General Discussion 6 04-12-2010 12:55 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:13 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com