anyone else having timing issues with play and pt 12?

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by TNM

i'm only a keyboardist as i learned piano from young.. but i do plan on learning guitar some day if health allows. With the ok thing, that's exactly right, they just need a preference.. There is not one time yet where i haven't wanted to overwrite the preset and clicked "ok".. so for me, it's just an annoying extra step. And how about some left/right arrows! for previous/next!

I'm going to render some files of the timing of the drums and loops from various daws.

Be aware if you're going to try Digital Performer that by default their plugins run in pregen mode and not realtime. To go realtime there's a couple pf things that need to be attended to. Like having the plugin gui open all the time and a selection in the plugin gui mini-menu to run said plugin in realtime.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by musicman691

Be aware if you're going to try Digital Performer that by default their plugins run in pregen mode and not realtime. To go realtime there's a couple pf things that need to be attended to. Like having the plugin gui open all the time and a selection in the plugin gui mini-menu to run said plugin in realtime.

Nah defo sticking with PT...Thought about it, just love using it too much.

SO.... news...

Play 6 fixed nothing.. but, at robotic, scripted suggestion of support, i deleted everything, all prefs etc and did a complete fresh install..
Support also answered me but avoiding the timing issue completely, not even one mention, which was the main point of the email LOL. They just ignored it.

However, it *renders* correctly.

I now can show you a way to prove it to all of you in a few seconds.

1)Open up play and choose any simple instrument, NO effects as effects can alter things, so make sure verb and comps are off.

Duplicate the track.

Invert the phase on one. Through the silence, you will occasionally hear full volume notes, cause they are being played *out of time*.


2) You can also try -arm one of them with the record button and notice they are 100% out of time with each other.
Exactly as i said before, Play has a problem with the hybrid engine and plays late by whatever the hybrid engine latency is.

3) Or, drag and drop one of them to an audio file to render it. You could use a tempo synced loop for this one to really highlight how tight it is with the metronome when rendered. Play the rendered one against the live midi track one. No matter what, they are always out of sync. More proof.

wow.

[TNM]

More interesting news..

All the time i was testing logic and saying it was ok, i had the track selected on the arrange page. This means that logic, unlike pro tools where you have to manually arm, automatically put the track into low buffer mode.

Once i selected another track, logic would be out of time way worse than pro tools with a play drum loop for one bar, then sync up.
Rendering however, again, was fine.

Now it gets interesting. I downloaded cubase 9.5 pro demo. It really is an excellent daw if very busy on the eyes.
I tested Play 6 VST3..
*exactly* the same issues as pro tools.
Record arm cubase, play is tight. Take it off the realtime buffer when using asio guard, play is loose.
Render, is ok.
Realtime midi play tracks are out of time with render, in all cases. 100% of the time.

So, i have actually worked out what is going on. Play is indeed a piece of crap.. But, unlike ALL other virtual plugins on the market, in existence, play for some reason is not compensated to be sample accurate on live playback.
Obviously something in the coding.

It is out by whatever the buffer is.. Even in a daw, like ableton, without a hybrid buffer, or studio one prior 3.5, play will be out by the chosen buffer in your preferences. Each and every time.

All other instruments compensate on playback to be in perfect sync.

The play issue is more pronounced in daw's that have a hybrid buffer, PT, Logic, Cubase etc, cause that buffer can be 1024 or even 2048.. and play gets that info and delays itself that much. And i have no idea why.

East west told me now, "thanks for your suggestion to look at the hybrid buffer, that's more help than avid would ever give us to work it out".

So of course they went quickly to blame shifting, even though I have confirmed it now as a global DAW issue.
It's a flaw in play's programming to not compensate timing on playback and to be delayed by the buffer.
I've just uncovered a massive issue with play unless one renders everything as they go along (i like to work in the midi domain as much as possible). I can't believe version 6 and no one else has noticed it, or they have, and the incompetent coders at EW are just not bothering to fix it.
so there you go.

PS, there is no excuse for the VST3 to be exhibiting issues which is why i tested it, as the whole vst3 protocol is about sample accurate playback... which means EW have had to do some really bad coding to break it. LOL.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by TNM

East west told me now, "thanks for your suggestion to look at the hybrid buffer, that's more help than avid would ever give us to work it out".

Even if Avid had given them the help they still wouldn't fix things. Witness the fact that Ethernet control surfaces in PT are STILL officially not supported. See this page and the host/daw support chart: http://www.soundsonline.com/play6
From past conversations I've had with EW people this won't ever be fixed.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by musicman691

Even if Avid had given them the help they still wouldn't fix things. Witness the fact that Ethernet control surfaces in PT are STILL officially not supported. See this page and the host/daw support chart: http://www.soundsonline.com/play6
From past conversations I've had with EW people this won't ever be fixed.

Ok..

so you mean they know about the timing issues?

And they still sell it and take people's money without ANY warning?

At least they warn of the ethernet "possible issue".

Can you confirm the timing issue i recently posted? Simply commit one midi file to audio and you will see they are off time with each other, that is the 100% proof and the same in every single daw. Since this happened, i tested kontakt with various libraries as well as 20 other virtual instruments, and all nulled with the printed audio (of course i used static, non effected sounds). Hence, they play midi back perfectly on time. ONLY play can't do it. only play.

Yes, i can see what you mean.. they simply do not care.. His reply was to actually contact the sales department to see if they would cancel my sub early. Absolutely not one helpful thing about the actual issue i emailed about. SO frustrating.
"sorry you are having problems with pro tools. I don't know about a refund but do contact sales so at least they can maybe stop the sub and you not get charged further".

I have actually paid east west to test their software and report bugs. I have paid THEM for MY time. It's outrageous and I have every right to react like this.

Secondly, i have located since play came out, requests from others at forums, dating back many years, for browser next/previous patch arrows and for a preference to disable it asking replace every time.. and it's at version 6, and you are right, they haven't done a thing. They do what THEY want to do, and i know for a fact, i can NOT say this stuff at their forum or i would be instantly perma banned!
I brought up the timing issue day one and have never given up on it, and received no help. That was in August. All that's happening is that i'm still getting charged, and not using the items at all, other than the 100hrs of my time i have wasted on all these tests, and time wasted writing emails.

I think that's why they dumped the infinitely superior kontakt.. cause it wasn't their own proprietary tech and their ego just couldn't deal with it. *why*, *WHY* didn't i listen to people at KVR warning me to never get it.. WHY!

PS, I just want to make clear to anyone reading, my ultimate goal with this topic and emails to them, is to have this FIXED, *not* a refund. This is why I was so shocked by the reply which didn't even say they would dare attempt even *look* at the issue.

[musicman691]

I can't confirm the timing issues you're having because I don't use Play engine libraries for anything to do with tight timing (loops, etc.). There are better vi's to do that. As to Play 6 I'm waiting until I see more comments from people as to whether it does anything that would help me. So far from what I've seen - nothing much for me in it. Supposedly they've upgraded the quality in the way the reverb is done, etc. Is that enough for me to buy it - not at this time.

[TNM]

Hi there.. you can still confirm it my friend by simply rendering some midi or even duplicating one of the play midi tracks and seeing they are out of time with one another. It happens on everything, the real midi is out by whatever the playback buffer is, whether orchestral, guitar, piano, whatever. It's the engine.

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by TNM

Hi there.. you can still confirm it my friend by simply rendering some midi or even duplicating one of the play midi tracks and seeing they are out of time with one another. It happens on everything, the real midi is out by whatever the playback buffer is, whether orchestral, guitar, piano, whatever. It's the engine.

Tried it and can't duplicate what you're seeing. Running at 1024 record buffer - remember that the playback buffer is set by PT itself to a certain extent. The only sounds that even came close to what you're seeing are brass & woodwinds as those instruments tend to speak a little later because of their design.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by musicman691

Tried it and can't duplicate what you're seeing. Running at 1024 record buffer - remember that the playback buffer is set by PT itself to a certain extent. The only sounds that even came close to what you're seeing are brass & woodwinds as those instruments tend to speak a little later because of their design.

Ok i have tried it on 3 macs now and 4 daws and duplicated it, so i am very confused. I'll be making a video of it.

Are you saying the two tracks null each other out?

I have just come up with exact figures.. when a track is record armed, play midi on that track will be out 512-530 ish fluctuating samples (late), when my buffer is at 128 in playback preferences.

When the play midi track is not record armed, the play midi is *exactly* a non fluctuating 1024 samples late to the rendered audio and to the click of course.

I don't understand what you mean as it has nothing to do with brass and woodwinds or whatever you use. Play's "live" midi engine plays late when in realtime compared to the render. if you can make a video of you literally rendering a play midi track, just throw and eq on it on the play midi track OR the render and invert the phase without touching anything else, if you can do that in pro tools on a mac, any mac, any os, either play 5 OR 6, and the live midi nulls with the rendered audio, i'll accept that it's my fault 100%. It's that simple, as well as pay you for the 10 minutes of your time it will take, whatever your normal hourly rate is divided by whatever amount of time you truly spend on it. I am literally seriously asking to be your client for this job.

You can just put 4 simple midi notes, choose any play instrument, let's make it something with a fast attack though ok, why not a guitar or piano, then simply drag the midi over to an audio track, it will instantly render (make sure both tracks are at unity gain).. Then simply try null them. That's it. Use quicktime to take the video, i only need 20 seconds of video so should upload quickly, perhaps whole procedure will take you 10 or 15 minutes and I am happy to pay you *up front* before you do it. Fair?

Cause to be honest I think you are misunderstanding and I am not accepting your results since I have reproduced it in Logic, S1, Cubase, Pro tools, on an imac running yosemite, a macbook pro running sierra, and a mac pro 8 core 2013 model running el capitan (that's my friends that i went to just to test this away from my own machines) and they all behaved exactly the same. Identically.

Play 6 has fixed the loop playback time in logic, but general midi of any instrument has wavered timing ie does NOT play exactly where your notes are placed.

Just because you don't work on a grid, it's no big deal to choose a transient instrument and put 4 notes, one at the start of each bar precisely, that's all you have to do, and render it.

This will prove, that it makes working with complex rhythmic, grid locked material *impossible* in realtime, and that it has to be rendered to audio. The ear is not going to pick up 23 milliseconds (1024 samples) with slow attack strings or brass or horns. But the test will also work with a horn with play's attack set at the fastest.

In fact, how about this.. I will make a simple pro tools project *for* you, the admin, ANYONE who wants to try it and has play, with a couple play midi tracks and a couple blank audio tracks you can render them to in 2 seconds with drag and drop, and i will prove it to everyone. I am THAT sure, cause i have done thousands of tests on it.

[musicman691]

I'm done chasing this - let someone else play your little game as I have better things to do.