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  #11  
Old 12-22-2019, 04:59 PM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Do not buy the new mac pro yet

I have worked out why your clock speeds were higher in cinebench. CB uses zero of the GPU, as in literally zero, so it's just pure cpu load.

When you are using a DAW, the GPU is indeed used so the power limit that has been placed on the machines for some reason, is being hit at a lower clock speed than if just the cpu was being used. This totally explains the difference and now tells me more than ever there's a TDP/maximum power limit issue in play.

It should be fixable via an EFI update..

Pro tools should give you similar clocks to logic on a fully loaded project, and pro tools uses the GPU more heavily than Logic.. if in Pro tools you get much better cpu clocks, then my theory is incorrect, since PT uses the GPU more than Logic.

Right now, it's awful to say what i said and I feel so bad for you, but you haven't got a computer that is performing at the speeds the cpu is capable of. Below base clock in Logic is unacceptable.. as I said we KNOW it's not a temperature issue as your temps are super low at all times.

Only you can decide if you care enough about this to report it to Apple or speak to a "genius". Just show them the clocks you get in a heavy DAW project and that it's below base clock let alone near all core turbo speed that it should be at. If you don't care and others don't then it' just something that will stay being the way it is. Personally I planned to save for the 16 core as I was certain it would be the DAW sweet spot for BOTH core count AND clock speed, but I won't put myself into such hoc for this sort of clock speed performance. But I don't own one and apple are much more likely to listen to you than me..

Just asking them, "is this expected", is in no way rude or confrontational and a fair question. Believe it or not I really do care about someone else spending thousands and thousands of dollars and not getting their money's worth.. That's my absolute only motivation for being so vigilant about this here and Gearslutz although we know how the latter turned out. It doesn't really affect me in the long run as if worse comes to worse, as a PT user I have options. You are much cooler and calm about this then i would be.. then again, i'd have to take a massive loan to buy the 16 core here the way I would want it (17,000 AUD with 96GB ram and one vega GFX card).
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-iMac Pro 3.2ghz 8 Core, 64GB Ram, Vega 56, OS 10.14.6/Win10 Pro, TB3 Dock & 4xSSD, UA Apollo x3 + Octopre x3, Microlite x2, Midi Synths galore, PT 2019.12
-MBP 15" 2.8ghz 4 core, 16gb ram, 750M, dual boot OS 10.13.6/10.14.6, On board analog audio out, PT 2018/2019
-Whenever I launch Pro Tools, I get wet.(™)
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  #12  
Old 12-22-2019, 08:42 PM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Do not buy the new mac pro yet

Anyway I just wanted to say, Southside will have one soon, and he uses PT so even though a 28 core, he'll be able to show us the all core clock speed under heavy load in PT to see if it has the same issue as Logic. Will be supremely interesting to find out! I really hope you are able to do that for us Christopher!

If it's maxing out at 2.8ghz under load which is what I expect due to current results around the web, then more confirmation there's a power limit issue. It should be in the mid 3's on all cores under heavy cpu load (the 28 core).

Christopher, I'll even create the project for you to max out your cpu so you won't need to do anything but load it and play and check intel power gadget :)

do you have avenger synth? I can easily max your 28 core out with a bunch of those playing (my MacBook pro can do 20 of the heaviest patch so i presume 70 for the mac pro).
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-iMac Pro 3.2ghz 8 Core, 64GB Ram, Vega 56, OS 10.14.6/Win10 Pro, TB3 Dock & 4xSSD, UA Apollo x3 + Octopre x3, Microlite x2, Midi Synths galore, PT 2019.12
-MBP 15" 2.8ghz 4 core, 16gb ram, 750M, dual boot OS 10.13.6/10.14.6, On board analog audio out, PT 2018/2019
-Whenever I launch Pro Tools, I get wet.(™)
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  #13  
Old 12-23-2019, 06:53 AM
RobertDorn RobertDorn is offline
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Default Re: Do not buy the new mac pro yet

Hey men, just read your post and checked the single core benchmark. Looks weird indeed that my 10-core Mac Pro 3,0GHz has a better single core speed performance than the new 12-core 3,5GHz Mac Pro. Can't be true.



Only the 28-core performs a tiny bit better while it would have made sense that the other 16/14/12/8 core XEON's would have outperformed it because of their higher clock speeds. The 8-core new Mac Pro didn't fit in the screen print because it's even outperformed by a mid-2017 standard iMac on single core speeds.

Must be sort of a bug, don't you think?
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  #14  
Old 12-23-2019, 09:01 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Do not buy the new mac pro yet

More and more tests are coming along that are showing the cpu in the mac pro can not hit their rated speeds.. I think it's 100% fixable with an EFi update.. it's just some arbitrary power limitation that needs to be increased.. I really believe that's the issue.

Right now though, for DAW use (if you are using hungry VIs, and effects plugins at low latency), it's the wrong mac for DAW use as single core performance is poor.

octatonic's 16 core was only able to sustain 2.9 ghz with all cores loaded in Logic , yet with temps in the 40's and low 50's. This shows it's not a thermal constraint but a TDP one.

That was below base clock of 3.2ghz and no other mac currently behaves like that, not even the 18 core iMac pro (aways above base clock) so this is why I panicked and tried to warn people to stop their purchases for now as they'd be disappointed. Was trying to help save people thousands of dollars, and got personally abused for it (not here). Anyway, it turns out I was right as more results filter in and now people are suddenly changing their tune in the other forum LOL and saying.. oh.. it seems the mac pro is not the best choice for a DAW after all.. SO...for right now, do not go and spend thousands of dollars on a new mac pro for DAW use especially if you use VI's at low latency. Or things like IK tape where clock speed is king. Forget it.
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-iMac Pro 3.2ghz 8 Core, 64GB Ram, Vega 56, OS 10.14.6/Win10 Pro, TB3 Dock & 4xSSD, UA Apollo x3 + Octopre x3, Microlite x2, Midi Synths galore, PT 2019.12
-MBP 15" 2.8ghz 4 core, 16gb ram, 750M, dual boot OS 10.13.6/10.14.6, On board analog audio out, PT 2018/2019
-Whenever I launch Pro Tools, I get wet.(™)
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  #15  
Old 12-23-2019, 09:04 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Do not buy the new mac pro yet

I just want to say one other thing.. at just 44K, and 64 buffer, one instance of the heavy avenger pianos causes pops and clicks even in LOGIC on both my macs.. It used the entire core. At 128 buffer it's ok but that's it.. one instance per core..
One of the macs is hitting 4.2ghz when it happens (the iMac pro), but the MacBook pro is between 4.8 and 4.9ghz.. way higher than any mac pro speed we have seen thus far. This means there are literally some VI's that won't fit onto a single core of the mac pro, and almost all VI's don't do their own multithreading (with a few exceptions). It's a serious problem particularly for an exorbitantly priced computer.
Once the Vi has been recorded and it goes on the pro tools playback buffer of 1024 samples, there shouldn't be an issue but playing some of them LIVE, will be an issue sadly.

the mac pro I would personally love is a consumer chip version with reasonably priced video cards that are good for gaming also.. you know.. a direct mac equivalent of the home pc desktop.

they could do the new Intel 10xx series.. the 8, 10, 12 and 14 core. Up to 128gb ram. Up to ATI 5700XT.

Done. Buy tomorrow (as long as they are able to hit their rated clock speeds).
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-iMac Pro 3.2ghz 8 Core, 64GB Ram, Vega 56, OS 10.14.6/Win10 Pro, TB3 Dock & 4xSSD, UA Apollo x3 + Octopre x3, Microlite x2, Midi Synths galore, PT 2019.12
-MBP 15" 2.8ghz 4 core, 16gb ram, 750M, dual boot OS 10.13.6/10.14.6, On board analog audio out, PT 2018/2019
-Whenever I launch Pro Tools, I get wet.(™)
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  #16  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:25 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Do not buy the new mac pro yet

1146 views so I think I should post the final update regardless whether others dare to touch this or not

Bootcamp is allowing more watts to go to the CPU and it is maintaining it's rated clock speeds.

So, in OSX, for the new mac pros, it has been confirmed that there IS a power limit issue. My imac pro is the same.

It stayed at all core turbo in windows 10 at all times and will NOT in Mojave or Catalina.

All this sparked some testing.. and it has been discovered that even my quad core 2014 haswell macbook pro, gets more of a ceertan type of VI than the new mac pro 16 core.
This is because the speeds are constantly fluctuating and the single core performance suffers.

For example. DIVA, standardised 4 note chord progression copied between DAWs, 8 poly max, Great quality diva settings:

Imac pro 10 core Mojave - 6 instances max

Imac pro 8 core Mojave- 6 instances max

Imac pro 8 core Windows 10 bootcamp - 12 instances

Macbook pro 16", 8 core, Catalina - 15 instances.

Mac pro 16 core, Catalina - 5 instances.

Macbook pro 2014, Quad core 2.8ghz, Mojave - 11 instances.

Same exact project, people other than me that own the new mac pro testing.

See? The new 16" macbook pro is not scaling that well from 4 to 8 cores for really cpu hungry VI's. I believe this is because Apple are agressively speed stepping even when thermals are just fine. I did not get a chance to test this one in bootcamp.. but my old haswell macbook pro is the SAME in bootcamp..The speeds are much more consistent and are only thermally limited in this case.

New mac pro with massive X - same thing, 6 instances.

Of course, apple will never see this as a problem, as the video guys who just want core crunching are their real market.

And stuff like alchemy and other sample based synths are performing really well on the new mac pro.. the 16 core is doing 80 omnispheres playing chords.

The problem is on algorithmic VA stuff..
All the cpu hungry ones are affected cause they can't properly fit a full instance on each core and have headroom left over, therefore they can't scale across all cores.

I could not think of a *worse* computer right now for someone who wants to be totally in the box with VI synths than my own imac pro or the new mac pro.

The reason bootcamp gets 12 instances on my imac pro 8 core, is because it is able to keep all cores at the max 3.93ghz all core turbo at all times.. temps never went above 60.4 which is peanuts for under load. It was quiet. So there is no reason for the speed to be fluctuating so much in OSX.

Still, the xeon, even at the full all core turbo, could not quite place one on every logical core. The macbook pro 16" *could*.

yet.. how the hell is the quad core with 8 logical cores getting 11 instances? And it is only boosting to 3.35ghz under all core load (thermal constraints) where as the 16" would hit 4.1, 4.2 ghz?

Because even when temps are low, i have seen the speed in my now returned 16" go from 4.3hz to 2.8ghz in an instant. That's why. Nevertheless, the macbook pro's single core performance is powerful enough to place one diva per logical core, or "thread".

Considering I want to sell some of my hardware synths and use VI's, i can not get out of the apple ecosystem fast enough after 12 faithful years.
The new mac pro is an absolute, yes I am going to just say it, an absolute JOKE in single core performance and sustained clock speeds for the price you pay. Why did apple bother with such an amazing cooling system if OSX can't fully run the cpu at it's own rated speeds?
In Bootcamp it will be much better, but other than the 8 core, no one has tested them in Windows on the DAW side.. the 8 core is getting 20 more whole watts to the cpu and maintaining it's all core turbo without dipping.
WOW.
I suspect all the other models will be the same.

If you are a heavy sampler user, by all means, great machine.
If you are a heavy VA user, be prepared for just as much freezing as the 2013 model.

If you use tons of audio tracks with effects, and they are therefore at the PT playback buffer which is 1024 samples, you will be impressed. If you want to arm 64 tracks going through PT's mixer in HD native with effects at 32 buffer.. be prepared for some disappointment. Especially if you are using good quality native reverbs for monitoring.

I know some people really hate me for starting all this at Gearslutz, but I can't change facts.

If someone else can tell me how a 2014 quad core 2.8ghz computer, can outperform a 16 core, 3.2ghz 2019 computer in *certain* VI synth scenarios, then I am all ears.

EDIT: I have now compiled a list of 100 algorithmic synths I will be testing over the next month. 5 a day, half an hour a day maximum devoted to it. So far, it is certainly NOT just Diva that is affected, although apple fanboys seem to be wishing it was so they can blame U-HE. There'll be a full chart made when the tests are concluded.
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-iMac Pro 3.2ghz 8 Core, 64GB Ram, Vega 56, OS 10.14.6/Win10 Pro, TB3 Dock & 4xSSD, UA Apollo x3 + Octopre x3, Microlite x2, Midi Synths galore, PT 2019.12
-MBP 15" 2.8ghz 4 core, 16gb ram, 750M, dual boot OS 10.13.6/10.14.6, On board analog audio out, PT 2018/2019
-Whenever I launch Pro Tools, I get wet.(™)

Last edited by TNM; 01-10-2020 at 09:17 AM.
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  #17  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:27 AM
TNM TNM is offline
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Default Re: Do not buy the new mac pro yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertDorn View Post
Hey men, just read your post and checked the single core benchmark. Looks weird indeed that my 10-core Mac Pro 3,0GHz has a better single core speed performance than the new 12-core 3,5GHz Mac Pro. Can't be true.



Only the 28-core performs a tiny bit better while it would have made sense that the other 16/14/12/8 core XEON's would have outperformed it because of their higher clock speeds. The 8-core new Mac Pro didn't fit in the screen print because it's even outperformed by a mid-2017 standard iMac on single core speeds.

Must be sort of a bug, don't you think?
Sorry i missed this.. INDEED, something is very very wrong.
But no one but you and I care so far..

so.. what to do? They'll keep encouraging apple not to change anything.
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-iMac Pro 3.2ghz 8 Core, 64GB Ram, Vega 56, OS 10.14.6/Win10 Pro, TB3 Dock & 4xSSD, UA Apollo x3 + Octopre x3, Microlite x2, Midi Synths galore, PT 2019.12
-MBP 15" 2.8ghz 4 core, 16gb ram, 750M, dual boot OS 10.13.6/10.14.6, On board analog audio out, PT 2018/2019
-Whenever I launch Pro Tools, I get wet.(™)
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