The future of surround sound? Auro 3D

[garnoil]

Originally Posted by Branko

I think it is quite a wrong idea to associate immersive sound with multi-million projects. I can imagine that, when you say "huge Hollywood movies", you think of action and/or animated films, where immersive sound would be used to increase the action and movement, but my experience tells me its really an oversimplification.
The biggest advantage (as far as I see it) of immersive sound systems is the increased definition - everything sounds so clear, especially when you compare it with a traditional 5.1, where surround sounds are being routed to an array of speakers. As a consequence of such an increased definition, all sounds can benefit from this technique - dialogues, BGs, music, so you can happily use it for any kind of project - not just "2-fast-2-furious" type of movies.
You're right about difficulties in bringing this technology to homes - I think it was never been intended for home use. As you say, in most homes even stereo is poorly reproduced.

I was really referring to "who can afford to mix in a stage with this type of technology" as opposed to the content of films 'huge explosions or action" although action films usually are first to use technology with the 'purchased wow' factor. It is mostly an economic issue, only big budget movies primarily destined for 'theatrical run' would use this system. Once the movie goes to DVD or download the 3d auro may be un-noticeable, not to mention what happens to down mixes. No one on working for broadcast, or indie films, or video games can benefit from the technology, although video games -which are as big as Hollywood if not bigger- may develop their own type of 3d sound or adapt. So from a business perspective, this technology is geared to high budget movies and only for their theatrical runs. It seems like a big investments for a fairly limited pay back an distribution market but..time will tell.

[dr sound]

Garnoil,
You haven't a clue. You are speculating.
You couldn't be more wrong on who can use or afford "Auro".
First off there is no license fee, ZERO!
Second, the toolset works right in Pro Tools and the files are delivered
in a 5.1 encoded Broadcast Wave File.
There are so many things on the horizon and you aren't open-minded.
Why are you mixing in 5.1 for your clients?
Why, because they expect it. My first Surround mix was in 1982, yes 82!
At that time we were mixing in MONO!
That is all they could broadcast, MONO.
We use to mix in Stereo knowing some day TV would be Stereo.
Well that happened in 1984. When I went to work at Sony Pictures
in 91 I was mixing in Surround. Only 2 other TV shows were mixed in surround.
No one would pay extra for it but I did it. Soon after I received 2 Emmys for Shows I mixed in Surround. After that more and more shows mixed in surround.
I started mixing in 5.1 and Surround and guess what, people also started mixing for 5.1 in TV as we could now broadcast it.
At AES this year where I was asked to speak on 2 Immersive Panels including one with Branco (who is a great guy) .I went to a seminar for "Audio for 4K TV" and guess what, They are setting standards for 4K TV and "Immersive 9.1 " will be the standard. That is normal 5.1 with a "Quad Top" that is Height Left Front, Height Right Front, Height Left Rear and Height Right Rear. That is where this is going. Do you need to mix "Immersive" right now, No? But that isn't stopping me. My clients appreciate and are embracing it fully once that have heard what it can do for their soundtrack. I've gotta go because I am supposed to be predubbing but I had to respond. I will reply in greater detail later. Mikerophonics the Auro Downmix is not like all that phase related stuff that you are used to. That is another beauty of it!

[garnoil]

Originally Posted by dr sound

Garnoil,
You haven't a clue. You are speculating.
You couldn't be more wrong on who can use or afford "Auro".
First off there is no license fee, ZERO!
Second, the toolset works right in Pro Tools and the files are delivered
in a 5.1 encoded Broadcast Wave File.
There are so many things on the horizon and you aren't open-minded.
Why are you mixing in 5.1 for your clients?
Why, because they expect it. My first Surround mix was in 1982, yes 82!
At that time we were mixing in MONO!
That is all they could broadcast, MONO.
We use to mix in Stereo knowing some day TV would be Stereo.
Well that happened in 1984. When I went to work at Sony Pictures
in 91 I was mixing in Surround. Only 2 other TV shows were mixed in surround.
No one would pay extra for it but I did it. Soon after I received 2 Emmys for Shows I mixed in Surround. After that more and more shows mixed in surround.
I started mixing in 5.1 and Surround and guess what, people also started mixing for 5.1 in TV as we could now broadcast it.
At AES this year where I was asked to speak on 2 Immersive Panels including one with Branco (who is a great guy) .I went to a seminar for "Audio for 4K TV" and guess what, They are setting standards for 4K TV and "Immersive 9.1 " will be the standard. That is normal 5.1 with a "Quad Top" that is Height Left Front, Height Right Front, Height Left Rear and Height Right Rear. That is where this is going. Do you need to mix "Immersive" right now, No? But that isn't stopping me. My clients appreciate and are embracing it fully once that have heard what it can do for their soundtrack. I've gotta go because I am supposed to be predubbing but I had to respond. I will reply in greater detail later. Mikerophonics the Auro Downmix is not like all that phase related stuff that you are used to. That is another beauty of it!

I am totally open minded, and please don't feel that you have to defend your position, your opinions or your studio, on account of what I say. You may think that I don't have a clue but I have mixed 35 feature films in the last 5 years and I think that translates into dollars and cents and a pretty good, I am going to go as far as saying, "excellent life style". So as far as having a clue, my opinion is based on "my' perception of the business that "I" work in. I did not say that YOU should not be mixing in whatever format you wish or that you should "listen' to what I say and change your production ways. Unfortunately you seem to take offense when anyone disagrees with opinion that you endorse or put forth. I was not even disagreeing with "your" opinion, I respect your position in the industry and with Avid but...sometime I simply do not agree. I am not personally attacking you and insulting you regarding your perception of the industry. I am simply stating that in MY opinion, the business model that relies on producing sound at the super expensive dubbing stages may not be sustainable. You may not have considered that the bulk of the financing of the media production models have changed and that with the convergence of all media into wireless devices and streaming it is bound to continue to change. How many reality shows, web series, low budget indie films, video games, broadcast documentaries, kids shows, and even sound design for live events do you think you are going to mix at your place in auro 3d? the answer may be very few or closer to zero. Sure you'll do big budget stuff and that is great for you but, for every big production that you work on, there are thousands of smaller productions that will never come to you. This is the regular flow of business, not everyone can have a Ferrari, and if you dig a bit into the economy, financial, and monetary models you will find out that free market economy is based on stepped distribution of capital and ownership of the means of production. There are distinct layers of production for a variety of products and services, this is why, China for example, has most of the manufacturing market that the US 'used' to have. So in an open market where there are big and small players and everything between, not everybody HAS to be or SHOULD be a 'big player'. There is NO economic system in the world that supports 'big players only'. So, how many features did you do in the last 5 years?

I did: 35 feature fims, 26 episodes of sci fi tv, 2 documentaries, 30 or 40 corporate productions, several Government productions, 2 health related interactive projects, 1 language dubbing for a Korean animated feature film, about 30 trailers, and...1 glorious web series! If I don't have a clue, I think prefer to stay this way as I rather be clueless and rich than the opposite:)

[dr sound]

Both Auro and Atmos are targeting the mobile market and have deals in place.
As for Video games Auro has signed multiple agreements with Video game companies. Everything will be coming home.

As for my addressing "Reality shows" I do not go after that market.
Never did, never will. I turn down work all the time.
I only do TV during Pilot season and not during the year as I pick and choose
What I work on. There are far more projects coming through “The Dub Stage”
That don’t get listed on IMDB because of choice and the fact that they don’t fit into Categories that are listed on IMDB.
When you ask about kid shows are you talking TV or Features?
TV , none by choice. Features, I am already booked on titles that I can not discuss.Web series, not interested. No money, no return. Those shows become favors.
I am in business to stay in business, not a charity.
As for “Big Budgeted Stuff” what do you consider big?
It may be if the budgets are more than the ones you work on.
I don’t do all in packages that don’t pay for the lighting bill.
As for all those shows on the list of yours, congratulations!
I am glad you are busy.

Well I have done Documentaries.
They were fun for a change of pace.
I don’t do them because I chose not to.
As for Foreign Films, I have done many . I had one of the biggest Indian Films
Last year that was the first “Immersive Film in India”.
I am mixing another Indian film right now. Big budgets… hardly.
They are fun, the people are great and they fit in between my other movies.
I do them because I like to work and refine my chops just like you.

Please let me know your description of “rich”?
No one gets “rich “ in this business. No one .

As for Feature Films, I did over 26 in the last 5 years.
These are Films that played in theaters In both New York and Los Angeles for over 1 week . That is a Feature Film not a film that only plays at Festivals.
So Garnoil, I do respect what you have created. If I didn’t I would not have helped you join the CAS and also respond to Pro Tools issues you have by giving you advice.
For example, I suggested years ago for you to get a Satellite system for Pro Tools and take the load off your system since you are trying to run everything off of one system.
I will once again suggest you get another system to off load Video onto. I would also strongly suggest that you go to PT 10 on your video system and run 11 on your main system. We have and therefore have no issues for our stage or our clients no matter what the budget is of our shows.
To wrap this up, I responded to your posts that you made which were taken from your perspective. Unfortunetly you were ill informed or had preconceived notions instead of facts. I want to correct some of your comments and give you the facts.
Stay busy and may your clients be repeat customers!

[paulo m]

I enjoyed watching the Auro presentation, it´s always great to see people that care about pushing sound reproduction to a higher level.

It´s also good that there is competition to Dolby Atmos, so that we don´t get hostage of a one company format for immersive sound, such as what happened with Dolby D for years.

But I have to agree with Garnoil that this type of tech is for the moment only whitin the reach of a few. Not because of the fees, but due to the infra-structure needed in terms of speaker arrays and involved acoustics, let alone mixing talent.
Stages providing those mixing conditions need to charge more in order to be financially viable, so there is a clear filter on which productions can and can´t afford it.

But just because most can´t afford it, it doesn´t mean that it should not be used more and more if sound reproduction benefits from it.

On the other hand, when I read that 4K will have immersive 9.1 sound on it´s specs, I can only smile. Not because I don´t believe in the proposed specs from a technical point of view, but because it´s just not practical for home TV viewing, with the exception of the few that have a proper home theater at home.

The masses listen in stereo or buy speaker bars for their TV´s, the last thing they will be doing is adding 4 height speakers on top of their 5.1 setups, if they happen to have one that is. That´s absolutely ridiculous.

Moving to the second screen or mobile watching, 4K means screen resolution, sound will end up going the usual way, 3.5 mm mini jack... when not played through the built in speakers.

For immersive sound to translate to the masses out of a controlled environment like a cinema, it needs to translate well to headphones, meaning that Auro 3D or Atmos will need to find a way that a listener on headphones can also benefit from the technology.
On doing so, they will open the door to people on a lower budget, that could then afford to mix and generate content for other fields of production than cinema movies.

[garnoil]

Originally Posted by dr sound

Both Auro and Atmos are targeting the mobile market and have deals in place.
As for Video games Auro has signed multiple agreements with Video game companies. Everything will be coming home.

As for my addressing "Reality shows" I do not go after that market.
Never did, never will. I turn down work all the time.
I only do TV during Pilot season and not during the year as I pick and choose
What I work on. There are far more projects coming through “The Dub Stage”
That don’t get listed on IMDB because of choice and the fact that they don’t fit into Categories that are listed on IMDB.
When you ask about kid shows are you talking TV or Features?
TV , none by choice. Features, I am already booked on titles that I can not discuss.Web series, not interested. No money, no return. Those shows become favors.
I am in business to stay in business, not a charity.
As for “Big Budgeted Stuff” what do you consider big?
It may be if the budgets are more than the ones you work on.
I don’t do all in packages that don’t pay for the lighting bill.
As for all those shows on the list of yours, congratulations!
I am glad you are busy.

Well I have done Documentaries.
They were fun for a change of pace.
I don’t do them because I chose not to.
As for Foreign Films, I have done many . I had one of the biggest Indian Films
Last year that was the first “Immersive Film in India”.
I am mixing another Indian film right now. Big budgets… hardly.
They are fun, the people are great and they fit in between my other movies.
I do them because I like to work and refine my chops just like you.

Please let me know your description of “rich”?
No one gets “rich “ in this business. No one .

As for Feature Films, I did over 26 in the last 5 years.
These are Films that played in theaters In both New York and Los Angeles for over 1 week . That is a Feature Film not a film that only plays at Festivals.
So Garnoil, I do respect what you have created. If I didn’t I would not have helped you join the CAS and also respond to Pro Tools issues you have by giving you advice.
For example, I suggested years ago for you to get a Satellite system for Pro Tools and take the load off your system since you are trying to run everything off of one system.
I will once again suggest you get another system to off load Video onto. I would also strongly suggest that you go to PT 10 on your video system and run 11 on your main system. We have and therefore have no issues for our stage or our clients no matter what the budget is of our shows.
To wrap this up, I responded to your posts that you made which were taken from your perspective. Unfortunetly you were ill informed or had preconceived notions instead of facts. I want to correct some of your comments and give you the facts.
Stay busy and may your clients be repeat customers!

As I said I respect your position in the industry. I probably overstated my 'rich' comment and should have said "a very comfortable life style doing what I like to do". As far as the films I work on, about 50% of the films get international distribution via DVD/Blu Ray to all major territories. Some films get a 1 or 2 week theatrical runs locally. Most films get to VOD, I-tunes, and broadcast. My other past sound work includes: over 300 hours of children's television (5 series) including a series of 100X 30 minutes episodes that played on PBS and world wide for over 15 years. Last year I did: 5 hours of sci fi tv, and an first people's series for far away communities. I also work on medical, Government, corporate, and educational programs (most of this non-film work is on stereo and destined for the internet and broadcast). I am now starting my 36 feature, still mixing a web series turned feature film, and working on a 22 channel matrix sound track for a very high international visibility thing (can not say more I have a very strict do not disclose agreement. I'll say more when I can).

As an artist run sound boutique, profitability is a function of steady work flow, and a controlled overhead as opposed to a rate card with high hourly/daily rates that my clients could not afford.

[Branko]

Originally Posted by garnoil

I was really referring to "who can afford to mix in a stage with this type of technology" as opposed to the content of films 'huge explosions or action"

Sorry for misinterpreting your post, I really thought you meant action movies… Due to overwhelming number of "Explosion&Action" kind of titles being released in immersive sound, audience often associates these two.
Anyhow, in my experience, and I can speak of Atmos only, I've already seen studios and theatres of extremely different sizes that I strongly believe immersive technology is affordable at any level. On the other hand, I admit I can't imagine any immersive content in mobile (or even home) environment, as there are too many things that would cripple the experience. I see immersive sound as a way to bring back, or keep audiences in theatres. Maybe I'm wrong, though…

[dr sound]

There are some misconceptions about Auro and how it applies to consumers.
Here is a link:
http://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/experience/

For example, I have done ground breaking "immersive headphone mixes"
for Auro,DTS and others that allow consumers play back Mixes that were done in 11.1 at "the Dub Stage" over headphones. It was quite an amazing sound played back via headphones. This can be applied to mobile devices via a standard stereo headphones. There are more exciting things and applications coming so I suggest that one keeps and open mind and open ears to the future.

[mgoorevich]

Originally Posted by Branko

see immersive sound as a way to bring back, or keep audiences in theatres. Maybe I'm wrong, though…

Branko it's us who lives in the rest of the world but US who struggle to bring audience to cinemas.
2012 Theatrical statistics summary
Global
• Global box office for all films released in each country around the world reached $34.7 billion in 2012, up 6% over 2011’s total, due to an increase in international box office ($23.9 billion) and U.S./Canada box office ($10.8 billion). All international regions with the exception of Europe experienced growth in 2012. Chinese box office ($2.7 billion) grew by 36% in 2012 to become the largest international market, surpassing Japan.
• International box office is up 32% over five years ago, driven by growth in various international markets, including China, Russia and Brazil.
• Over two-thirds of the world’s nearly 130,000 cinema screens are now digital.
U.S./Canada
• 2012 U.S./Canada box office was $10.8 billion, up 6% compared to $10.2 billion in 2011, and up 12% from five years ago. 3D box office was similar to 2011 ($1.8 billion), despite fewer 3D film releases.
• The 2012 increase in U.S./Canada box office was due to an equivalent increase in admissions (6%) compared to 2011, as admissions reached 1.36 billion, while the average cinema ticket price stayed flat.
• More than two-thirds of the U.S./Canada population (68%) – or 225 million people – went to the movies at least once in 2012, consistent with prior years. Ticket sales continue to be driven by frequent moviegoers who attend once a month or more. In 2012, frequent moviegoers represented 13% of the population and 57% of all movie tickets, an increase of 7 percentage points in ticket share from 2011, at the expense of occasional moviegoer ticket share. This suggests that the increase in ticket sales in 2012 was among moviegoers who increased their attendance from less than once a month, to once a month or more.
• Broader moviegoer demographic shares remain relatively stable from 2011 to 2012, with 12-24 year olds and Hispanics continuing to oversample in moviegoing versus their proportion of the population – however, 2012 saw increases in the number of frequent moviegoers in nearly every ethnicity and age group, notably in the 40- 49 year old group.
• In 2012, 48% of all U.S./Canada moviegoers viewed at least one movie in 3D, with attendance continuing to skew toward younger moviegoers.

The full document maybe found here

So there is no crisis in the industry.
The problem is with outsiders like us or indie film market.
All the stuff we love and work on with low budget "art" movies is a whole other story. I have no statistic about how many people attending these "art" movies funded by the EU governments but they are not targeted as block busters anyways, thus will be concentrated on artistic achievements rather the "wow" factor.
Being said that there are many state of the art studios in Europe and East Europe dealing with some expensive US productions. So the technology is here but the separation became too steep.
There is an entertainment cinema and it does well…and will be well in a nearest future.
And there is an indie stuff which becomes worse and worse with each year.
When I say worse I mean getting lower and lower budgets.

E.g. A Michael Haneke film "Amour" Budget: $8,900,000 (estimated)
Gross: $6,738,954 (USA) (10 May 2013),
Won Golden Globe USA - Best Foreign Language Film

vs

Gravity
Budget: $100,000,000 (estimated)
Gross: $271,814,796 (USA) (7 March 2014)
Won 7 Oscars

So what I want to say?

There are some folks (between us here too) who chose to work on a big budget films and some who chose to survive and do the indie stuff.
It doesn't mean that some are more or less talented than others. The measurement of success in a modern western society is the money. The technology is money. The money is the technology.
I am thankful to those people who provide and contribute to this technology and I try to bring some pieces of this technology and achievement back home.
This is how I see it.

[garnoil]

I can not work in big budget Hollywood, even if I wanted to (which I absolutely don't). I am not a US citizen, I am not legal to work in the US, and I would never move to live in the US. I am not the only person in this situation, there are probably millions of film people of all kinds of disciplines that are in the same boat. India, is the largest producer of film in the world, and most of their productions are made 100% in India and NOT in Hollywood. India supports the largest commercial film work base in the world, and they produce from huge budget to penny pinched films. I would guess that most of the people that work in film in India will never move the US to work in Hollywood or New York (a few will but the vast majority will not).

I am 100% for the advancement of sound technology of any kind, but the vast majority of film consumers in the world (not talking about the elite population of audiophiles in the US) are not, and never have been. The average 'world film consumer' is not 'sound educated' and properly equipped to play movies at home. The average consumers use poorly designed and improperly set up inexpensive 'theater in a box' from a big box store. They boost the bass as much as possible and crank it up until the thing crackles and the neighbors complain. This is not new, this is the way it has always been. But even this 'consumer attitude' is changing, because now, these same folks are watching movies through Netflix, VOD, or playing them through the Xbox (I have a young son and this is exactly what he and his friends do). The new generation, which represents the bulk of the buying power for the next 20 years- is NOT going to the theater nearly as much as we older people did. Their entertainment is virtual and they want it that way, because they live in an e-world much more than older people. Having said that, there are films that were never designed to go to theatrical, so if a film is to make its money back on the DVD market or Netflix or VOD- and NOT in the Theatrical run- it is a big reach and almost a waste of money to mix these type of films at super expensive dub stages, that use the latest technology as the intended average play back medium is -mid quality home theater. Also, these films can not afford to produce any of their disciplines at large budget post houses, as it is, they barely recoup their money on DVD and VOD. The reality is that most of these movies have never mixed in huge dub stages, and will never mix at these places. I think I speak of experience because I mixed 35 features in the last 5 years and I have another 5 slated, signed with money deposit, for the rest of this year. In my city there is a ration of may be 1 large budget film to 40 low budget films. The 1 high budget film will always go to Technicolor or Deluxe or those guys, but what about the other 40? That in my opinion, is where the thriving business is. This applies not only for sound post, but it is the same for video editing, color corrections, DCP, artwork, promotion and posters. DCP in my city is now down to about 1K and only 3 years ago it used to cost close to 10K. So what happened to the guy that used t charge 10 K for DCP in Montreal? well it closed its doors sending 150 people out of work...it was Technicolor. And after Technicolor closed its doors, more and more indie color houses thrived. People will say, well it was not only DCP that made Technicolor in Montreal close, and they are absolutely right BUT...it is the sum of the factors that add up to a non-profitable, non-sustainable business model. Color in my city used to cost between 12K and 15K for a non-action well shot feature, now with Davinci costing 1K for the software and 2 K for the Avid color wheels, films can get decent color for their low budget features for under 3K. The entire industry is affected by the democratization of technology. A red Cam is now less than 1/2 price of what it used to be and most indie directors are now using Arie (seems like the Red is becoming passe).

So, this is a very interesting conversation and it is not about the technical merits and sound achievements of this new sound technology, it is about the positioning of emerging technology -all kinds of technology- in a very competitive and ever changing market place.