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  #1  
Old 08-15-2011, 09:56 AM
mwpmorris1 mwpmorris1 is offline
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Default Undipped music stem

I'm trying to clarify exactly what is an "undipped" music stem. Over the past few years I have interpreted it as music without any dips whatsoever - for on-screen dialogue or vo.

However, sometimes when working on mix stems from other dub houses - when recutting or reversioning for international markets I have seen music stems that are dipped for sync but not for vo.

Can anyone give me their interpretations of this?

I can see the sense in dipped for sync/undipped for vo but it seems a bit inflexible to me and would hamper recutting in future. I think it'd also pose problems if the on screen dialogue were to be replaced in a foreign language.

If someone can shed some light on this I'd be most grateful!
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  #2  
Old 08-15-2011, 11:58 AM
RecRoom RecRoom is online now
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

I've never heard of dipping a music stem for dialog, but not for VO. An m&e or music stem shouldn't be dipped under any circumstances, imo. Sort of defeats the purpose.

There is such a thing as a mix minus, which is basically your full mix minus the VO with the music and efx undipped where the VO is.
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  #3  
Old 08-15-2011, 03:31 PM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default

Oh dear.. Sighs

The whole point of stems is that the dial, music and fx stem should sum to make the dm&e, to which you dip under the VO stem to make the final mix..

I reversion hundreds of hours of tv a year for my friends at AETN, and if I had a pound for every time that this wasn't the case, I would be heliskiing in NZ now.

The music stem should be therefore be the correct level under the sync (I.e dipped) for interviews and soundbites, but the dipping under the VO is done by the dme fader,, this is because America - yes you! there are other languages in the world that are different lengths (and I count British amongst the other languages) and to fight a dipped dme is a pain.


For most tv shows, mix the m&e fist, the international version is the one that sells and often makes the production the most money, and then go back and final mix for your territory.

This really isn't hard and and it is surprising how many people get it wrong and fall foul of the golden rule of post "don't pass [bleep][bleep][bleep][bleep] on"

Most international versioning sessions do not have the time or the money to rebalance your dme, so you make no friends and are not helping yourselves if you provide a dipped dme and you and your post house will rapidly get a shirty call from the production company.

Incidentally, although I am often found being ironic and perhaps irreverent, when I made a quip about foreign languages above, I was actually being quite serious, most American tv shows are re-voiced in the UK as our style of language and also our style of mixing is quite different. I digress.

here's a hopefully helpful video from Pro-Tools-Expert where Mike Thornton and I discuss how to make undippeded M&E mixes, and how to lay out your templates and why.

It is not intended to teach seasoned pros how to suck eggs (before you even start), but if you are not sure or have little experience at this, it will guide you along your way and prevent you from making silly errors.
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  #4  
Old 08-15-2011, 04:42 PM
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BobbyDazzler BobbyDazzler is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Touched a nerve Mike :)

But like Mike says, I find it easiest to mix an MnE, then I bus that mix out and automate it seperately to dip under Narration.
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  #5  
Old 08-15-2011, 09:00 PM
JKD99 JKD99 is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Yes, but why should the FX and BGS (atmos) dip if it's only the MX that's fighting the VO or DX?
This is something that I can't quite understand....it seems to "dumb-down" what we do as mixers, as if all we do is raise and lower one fader......
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  #6  
Old 08-16-2011, 01:13 AM
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BobbyDazzler BobbyDazzler is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKD99 View Post
Yes, but why should the FX and BGS (atmos) dip if it's only the MX that's fighting the VO or DX?
This is something that I can't quite understand....it seems to "dumb-down" what we do as mixers, as if all we do is raise and lower one fader......
As long as your MnE is well balanced and useable, feel free to do your Full Mix with as much finese as you like.
I actually have 2 sub masters, 1 dipping music, and the other dipping SOT and FX, and these are automation bypassed for the MnE. So strickly speaking, you can't perfectly recreate my Full Mix from the MnE and Narration, but if they need more flexibility they can use the full splits.
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Old 08-16-2011, 01:50 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Bang on Bobby! "Right on the money" (as Mr Cowell would say - well, if he could mix....)

No one is cramping your "style" jkd, do what you like in the final, but if you make a great dm&e, often the final is just two faders, VO and DME. and it just sits well.

My issue is with people who start out mixing the final and then the M&E is afterthought for "everyone else" where dipping is happening all over the place on group, sub masters, channels and the DME is consequently dipped and bumpy.

Dirty stems... undipped music, incorrect bussing - now that is not fun to deal with. If anyone puts profanity bleeps on the fx stem I will shoot to kill!

back to work...
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  #8  
Old 04-30-2014, 11:52 PM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

But that is how most foreign territories do things and are used to. It isn't about what you like. You are not paying for the Reversioning session. If you dip under the sync on the music audio group you can send them a n undipped music stem from a pre fader output there.. The important thing is to attack all projects in this manner and provide correctly made stems to all your clients and make the M&E the mix you do first. They then have a fighting chance to mix reasonably within their budgets.
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  #9  
Old 05-01-2014, 05:58 PM
philper philper is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEROPHONICS View Post
But that is how most foreign territories do things and are used to. It isn't about what you like. You are not paying for the Reversioning session. If you dip under the sync on the music audio group you can send them a n undipped music stem from a pre fader output there.. The important thing is to attack all projects in this manner and provide correctly made stems to all your clients and make the M&E the mix you do first. They then have a fighting chance to mix reasonably within their budgets.
It might not be about why I like but it is certainly about what the director likes, and what my clients want is to have the other versions be as much like their original mix as possible. No arguement about your making of the M+E for those who will only use that, but I want to also give them well-made split stems so they can do a better job of it if they want to/can. If the stems are made as well as you prescribe and are of identical length then I don't find it really more time consuming to line them up and group the tracks, as well as ungroup them where a better mix could be made so. I have done this when getting stems from others many times. When you give them your M+E made according to your prescription, do you give them split stems as well? Or is that decision out of your hands, a matter of contracts etc?

philp
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Old 05-02-2014, 12:12 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Yes, of course I do. For everything I do I hand over Dx, Mx, Fx, DME (where the Dx MX FX add up to the M&E) , Vo and Full Mix. I only vary this if the deliverables require it. I don't send PT sessions.
It is the choice of the prduction what to send to their foreign sales,
For 95% of occurrences this is great.
The delivery requirement of most broadcasters is a mix and a DM&E. I recommend my clients to be nice and send the stems too like I do for them. I am often not asked by production companies for them, but offer them and explain the benefit for promos etc.
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