Master Fader Clipping

[4times4mil]

Whats up guys,
I was wondering if anyone has a situation where the master fader shows the red clipping indicator without noticible distortion in the audio. I am using instrument tracks and the only track that has imput is the one I happen to be working on at any point and time. As i said the signal sounds fine and none of the individual tracks are clipping but the master fader clips on almost every beat. I have on many occasions browsed through the DUC and I can remember reading that it's never a good idea to turn down the master fader. There are no affects on any of the tracks and the only plugins are Virtual guitar 2, expand and hybrid. All other sounds are comming from my keyboard which is a triton studio. All faders are at 0db. So why the master fader clip?

[Aussie169]

Ah, Grasshopper.
The sum is always louder than all its parts combined.
Go forth and mix with your faders lower, and enlightenment you will find.

(Your mastering engineer with thank you too )

[4times4mil]

many thanks to you oh wise master of the pro audio wonderland!!

[Sonny in London]

Ah, Grasshopper.
The sum is always louder than all its parts combined.
Go forth and mix with your faders lower, and enlightenment you will find.

*sniff* .. that was beautiful.

[Ben Jenssen]

I can remember reading that it's never a good idea to turn down the master fader.

This is one of the many myths that you can find around here. Pull back the master fader to control your output level. Nothing wrong with that. (Just be aware that any plugins on the master fader are POST fader, unlike other tracks. So f.ex a compressor will behave differently as you adjust the fader.)

[skwad]

sorry to butt in but is there anywhere on the duc or the digidesign web site that explains the master fader in more detail?

[spkguitar]

So the information in Chapter 25 (specifically, page 480 for the 7.x version) of the Reference Guide (available from the help menu within the program) doesn't quite do it for you? I find it very informative and detailed.

[3JDamon]

Yes, two tracks peaking at 0dB simultaneously renders +3dB, four makes +6dB, eight makes 9dB, etc, but note that the mix engine is 32-bit, so there is 24dB of overhead prior to the master fader adjustment. You could literally have 256 tracks all peaking at 0dB simultaneously with the master fader to -24dB and nothing gets clipped. (8 bits = 8 x 3dB = 24dB, 2^8 = 256)

You can also go over 0dB in tracks using plugins without clipping from the mix engine, and I'm not concerned if some tracks light up the clip light, but I don't make a practice of saturating the mix engine. Ironically, there is nothing to "gain". (badum-tshhh!)