HD Native Personal Mini Review

[RaySoul]

Hey Tom,

Now that you have and are enjoying your native system, will you be content enough with it that you can let go of HEAT and perhaps any other TDM-only plugs? I ask because I'm debating a native HD system vs TDM because I'm thinking I may want HEAT, Phoenix and some of the Eventide stuff...

[Tom Hartman]

Originally Posted by RaySoul

Hey Tom,

Now that you have and are enjoying your native system, will you be content enough with it that you can let go of HEAT and perhaps any other TDM-only plugs? I ask because I'm debating a native HD system vs TDM because I'm thinking I may want HEAT, Phoenix and some of the Eventide stuff...

I just spent all day tracking guitars at a buffer of 128 and it felt EXACTLY like the HD system I just sold. Guess they are right about this card coupled with their converters! Just super. They were all going through different instances of ELEVEN and there was no perceptible delay when tracking.

There are no TDM only plugs that I miss except HEAT ( I was using the demo) and Phoenix. They are killer indeed. That said, I think you will see HEAT in RTAS, don't know about Phoenix, eventually.

I use the Oxford Limiter (in ENHANCE ONLY MODE) which does a lot of that character thing, so losing those plugs is not a deal breaker. The amount of money saved, the tracks gained....man this system is rockin'! Very impressed. And it's supposed to be even better at 96, I am at 44.1.

Tom

[Tom Hartman]

"I've mixed huge sessions on an HD1. I haven't had much trouble being efficient with my track layout."

I doubt you'll get more than smiles from most people when you use the words "mix," "huge sessions," and "HD 1" all in one sentence, especially if you are trying to use HEAT!



"I've tried 128 and indeed I do feel it. Not with instruments with a slow attack but with drums or quick keyboard parts it's an issue. The delay kills the vibe."



I play piano and program drum parts daily, but that has nothing to do with HD1 vs Native....??? Pick a buffer you like and go, either system.

Bottom line..this HD Native System kicks an HD1 system around quite severely and is easily the equal of an HD2, which I've also worked on extensively.

Peace
T

[Eric Lambert]

It sounds like Native is a success for you. That's good. Unfortunately, try as you may to convince me otherwise, I can't adjust to the compromises of Native, and, fortunately, I don't need to.

[NewdestinyX]

Originally Posted by Mark Ziebarth

You're right, Chris. After all the changes that happened the last few weeks I guess the voice limit of a HD1 is artificial. Or is there a hardware limit I don't know about?

Mark

Haven't read to the end of the thread -- but this is a big issue for me.. and I can report that with an HD1 system, running at 96K -- AND IN PT9 -- you are CAPPED at 48 voices.. STILL!!! People often don't understand the difference between 'tracks' and 'voices'. So - you can have 48 stereo OR mono tracks and that's ALL -- at 96K in HD1. It's a hardware limitation - regardless of the amount of tracks Digi 'ups' in their software upgrades. And when you go from an RTAS plugin BACK to a TDM on any given track you lose ANOTHER 'voice' for a mono track and another '2 voices' for a stereo track.

I'm hoping -- and you guys can please confirm this for me... that with the new HD|Native card -- there is NO limit on VOICES except the limit DIGI puts on for max track count.. Is that correct?

So with PTHD9 I 'should' be able to get 192 voices at 96K??? Please -- say YES!

If so -- this is a VERY strong reason for HD1 owners to consider getting out of their HD1 rigs and moving to HD|Native -- as the VOICE limit is the main downside of HD1. And of course you'd have to live without TDM only plugins -- which will be hard for me - giving up my REVIBE, MASTERX3 and REVERB ONE and DRAWMER. But I can find other flavors I like if I could only get MORE voices.

Now the last question would be -- is the HD aspect of the HD|Native card the SAME 2 mix bus and summing as HD Accel? That's the main thing I'm worried about. Not to start a long debate -- but it's the TDM 2mix buss that keeps me in HD. I'm convinced it's the best sounding out there. SO if I can get rid of VOICE limits but still have the 2mix bus SOUND of HD -- I'm in!

[NewdestinyX]

Originally Posted by Eric Lambert

I've mixed huge sessions on an HD1. I haven't had much trouble being efficient with my track layout.


I've tried 128 and indeed I do feel it. Not with instruments with a slow attack but with drums or quick keyboard parts it's an issue. The delay kills the vibe.

Originally Posted by Eric Lambert

It sounds like Native is a success for you. That's good. Unfortunately, try as you may to convince me otherwise, I can't adjust to the compromises of Native, and, fortunately, I don't need to.

Eric, really I hear you -- from the perspective of having been the studio manager of several multiroom facilities and needing them to be at peak efficiency for the clients that came to us. Latency is 'unacceptable' at any level in that paradigm.

But some of your argument sounds a little like the guy who buys a $90,000 Steinway -and in comparison tests in the studio against his $15,000 Kawai -- being 'unwilling' to do double blind tests to see which one sounds better -- because the guy who spends $90K on a Steinway HAS to 'believe' it would sound better -- even it if doesn't.. I've been in that chair too.. and quite often a $30K Kawai sounds WAAAAY better than the Steinway in the double blind tests.

I really have to take exception to your statement that you've done HUGE mixes on HD1 and never had voice counts issues. The math just doesn't add up, my esteemed colleague. If you have 2-3 plugs per track (a minimum for most of us)-- you WILL, ALWAYS, run out of voices eventually at 48K on a 'HUGE' mix (50+ tracks) -- and certainly you will at 96K - which is all I cut at these days.

Then there's your latency argument. Remember you're probably remembering ProTools LE at 128. HD|Native is a different animal that you haven't personally tried yet. And please -- in Low Latency monitoring mode in even LE -- if you do a phase cancel test on an input session tracking at 128 versus 64 -- not I 'nor' you - are 'good enough' musicians () to make the case that there's a 'feel' difference between the two when using LowLatency Monitoring in LE. Even playing percussion. Sorry -- there just isn't. And I have to believe it's even better in HD|Native.

I was with you about the 'not wanting any trade offs' issues going from HD to Native - but then when you cited your 'examples' of the alleged trade offs -- you lost me. Again -- we're talking HD1 systems here in the 'argument'. I've been in HD 1 for 'several years now' - work in it all day, every day - and voice counts, at the mixing level -- is a 'seriously' buzz killing issue. If HD|Native gets rid of that AND can promise me the HD '2 mix buss' then I may be in. But if the 2mix bus in HD is a funtion of TDM -- then all bets may be off. I NEED the 2mix buss sound of my HD1 system. "IT'S" the reason I left the Native world behind. It had nothing to do with TDM plugins. In fact I'm one of those 'weirdos' that like the RTAS instantiations of 95% of the plugins OVER the TDM versions. Though as I've said - the TDM Only reverbs, ReVibe and ReverbOne are truly amazing 'go-to' plugins for me. They would be HARD to replace.

[KingFish]

NewDestinyX

just playing devil's advocate here. I'm wondering if the 2mixBus from HD that you're hearing, have been accustomed to, and left LE for - is more the interfaces themselves then the actual Float Point v.s. Fixed Bit math of the 2 Mix engines ?

Many in here claim that bounces in the 2 environments (HD & LE) completely phase Cancel / Null and that the "End math" results in the exact same.

I'd LIKE to see some controlled tests on that, from Avid themselves, or someone Actually neutral in here. but it seems no one is neutral - the DUC has become littered with the HD v.s LE debate - And i really DO hope PT9 closes that gap a bit, for nothing else, but to bring the DUC back to a place, I feel it "Once was" where we all talked about music production, troubleshooting, tips etc...

I wandered OT there on a rant (Like I used to) for a sec :)

Back to the original point - I wonder if listening to your mix, through a native card (Which does NOT have the TDM Fixed Bit Mix math), and your 192, or an Omni - v.s. "What you were forced to listen to your LE mixes through" (002, 003 etc...) if THAT wasn't the difference.

I'm posing a question, and genuinely curious.

[NewdestinyX]

Originally Posted by KingFish

NewDestinyX

just playing devil's advocate here. I'm wondering if the 2mixBus from HD that you're hearing, have been accustomed to, and left LE for - is more the interfaces themselves then the actual Float Point v.s. Fixed Bit math of the 2 Mix engines ?

Many in here claim that bounces in the 2 environments (HD & LE) completely phase Cancel / Null and that the "End math" results in the exact same.

I'd LIKE to see some controlled tests on that, from Avid themselves, or someone Actually neutral in here. but it seems no one is neutral - the DUC has become littered with the HD v.s LE debate - And i really DO hope PT9 closes that gap a bit, for nothing else, but to bring the DUC back to a place, I feel it "Once was" where we all talked about music production, troubleshooting, tips etc...

I wandered OT there on a rant (Like I used to) for a sec :)

Back to the original point - I wonder if listening to your mix, through a native card (Which does NOT have the TDM Fixed Bit Mix math), and your 192, or an Omni - v.s. "What you were forced to listen to your LE mixes through" (002, 003 etc...) if THAT wasn't the difference.

I'm posing a question, and genuinely curious.

Thanks, David. Fair enough question. And I've followed pretty much ALL those phase cancel threads and I have to say that, in my own tests, the two resultant mixes never nulled out when reversing phase on one mix. There were always artifacts in the 'high end' that for me made all the spatial difference in the world in the mix differences. And people were never doing the tests accurately in those threads. To really do the tests you can't use 'bounce to disk' - you have to send the the mix out (realtime) thru SPDIF or AES to an MBox2Pro and record the output of your TDM mix into a session created on that other computer with the MBox2Pro. THEN do the SAME mix over ON that other computer in LE running the MBox2Pro -- using same plugs - of course. That's the proper way to do the test -- and in those cases -- I assure you -- the mixes do NOT phase cancel.

But let's not reopen that old can of worms. Suffice it to say -- you're right that the D/A you're working with MATTERS. And what I 'hear' when mixing 'affects' my mix decisions. So I 'could be' open to an argument that says -- I need TDM because I need a 192 I/O to make my best mix decisions. So -- then that would lead me to the fact that an HD|Native system CAN hook up to a 192I/O - right?

So there's a "LOT" of me that's leaning to the HD|Native system. But what does the HD part mean? Just that it can hook up to the Digi HD hardware machines?

And again I ask -- is the 2mix buss handled by TDM chips in an HD TDM system?

[acmost]

I'd like to know if with HD/Native and a first generation Mac Pro Quad 2.66 XEON, say on a session that I usually open up on HD2...say 50 tracks, 10 auxes & few plugs on each...can I get through it without the "Lose RTAS bump Buffer" thing?

[Loudnoize Ent.]

Originally Posted by acmost

I'd like to know if with HD/Native and a first generation Mac Pro Quad 2.66 XEON, say on a session that I usually open up on HD2...say 50 tracks, 10 auxes & few plugs on each...can I get through it without the "Lose RTAS bump Buffer" thing?

Hey acmost,

I have the Mac Pro 2.66 1st Gen plus the HD/Native and at the moment I'm mixing with over 70 tracks, few auxes, a ton of plug-ins and the CPU meter reads a high 68% but the buffer error have been very few. Two or three at most and coming from the lowest Mac Pro series, this ain't bad. From what I've been hearing, stick a new Westmere to the game and we'll certainly be starting a new chapter. I believe Tom said it best when saying the HD/Native is very much an HD 2 system. Yes, been there, done that. I'm running the 96io but also hoping in getting the OMNI and UAD card. Hey, add a 6 core Westmere to the mix and this could be sweet! Cheers!