Avid Pro Audio Community

Avid Pro Audio Community

How to Join & Post  •  Community Terms of Use  •  Help Us Help You

Knowledge Base Search  •  Community Search  •  Learn & Support


Avid Home Page

Go Back   Avid Pro Audio Community > Legacy Products > Pro Tools 11

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-09-2013, 11:21 AM
-JK- -JK- is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 101
Default Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

Is it just me or is anyone else not able to explain how two separate buffers shall work? How could you record with an input buffer of 32 samples when your output buffer is 1024 samples (or more) and still be in time? Any theories? I say it's impossible without deactivating all plug-ins when recording that induce more than 32 samples of latency, which would be flawed of course.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-09-2013, 01:45 PM
Stig Eliassen's Avatar
Stig Eliassen Stig Eliassen is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Norway @ Studio Varmt & Trangt
Posts: 7,455
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

I can't really explain the technicalities behind this feature, but it allows you to track with ultra-low latency (low latency input buffer), but still have a larger playback buffer setting for VIs and plugins in general. This is great because we no longer have to sacrifice CPU power (decrease the buffer) to track with very low latency.

Huge feature in my opinion, and I can't see why it should be impossible.
__________________
Studio rig - Pro Tools|HDX 2018.7 | Logic Pro X.4.2 | Avid HD I/O (8x8x8) | 6-core 3.33 Westmere w/24GB RAM | OS 10.12.3 | D-Command ES | Eleven Rack | Vienna Ensemble Pro 5
Mobile rig - Macbook Pro i7 w/16GB RAM | UA Apollo 8p | Pro Tools|HD 2018.3 | Logic Pro X.4.2 | OS 10.12.6
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-09-2013, 02:02 PM
Dism Dism is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Lover View Post
I can't really explain the technicalities behind this feature, but it allows you to track with ultra-low latency (low latency input buffer), but still have a larger playback buffer setting for VIs and plugins in general. This is great because we no longer have to sacrifice CPU power (decrease the buffer) to track with very low latency.

Huge feature in my opinion, and I can't see why it should be impossible.
I think it's really just the mystery that surrounds it. It was pretty confusing to me, too, and I imagine to many others.

I certainly have a few questions about it... How exactly does it keep latency low? If output buffer is automatic, then will latency be dynamic? What kind of latency should we expect? If we set the input buffer to 32, can we expect a consistently low input delay even with a large session? Does this really mean the end of CPU spikes and error messages? Is there any other hidden cost like artifacts?
__________________

D
a n t h e I n c r e d i b l e S o u n d M a n

"Svetlana" v1 - 4.2GHz i7, 16GB RAM, OSX 10.7.4
Liquid Saffire 56 - PT10.2 - BFD2, VCC, Duende Native, Play 3.0

_C U R R E N T-D V E R B-S C O R E:515
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-09-2013, 02:06 PM
-JK- -JK- is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 101
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Lover View Post
I can't really explain the technicalities behind this feature, but it allows you to track with ultra-low latency (low latency input buffer), but still have a larger playback buffer setting for VIs and plugins in general. This is great because we no longer have to sacrifice CPU power (decrease the buffer) to track with very low latency.

Huge feature in my opinion, and I can't see why it should be impossible.
Yes, I know, that's what the press release says, but think about it: with one or many plug-in that are inducing a lot of latency on a record-enabled track it's impossible to have no latency on the headphones when monitoring it without disabling the plug-ins.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-09-2013, 02:10 PM
-JK- -JK- is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 101
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dism View Post
I think it's really just the mystery that surrounds it. It was pretty confusing to me, too, and I imagine to many others.

I certainly have a few questions about it... How exactly does it keep latency low? If output buffer is automatic, then will latency be dynamic? What kind of latency should we expect? If we set the input buffer to 32, can we expect a consistently low input delay even with a large session? Does this really mean the end of CPU spikes and error messages? Is there any other hidden cost like artifacts?
The only thing that I can imagine is that the output buffer is automatically set to the amount of samples the delay compensation is reporting. I still can't think of a way how it should be possible to record with plug-ins and still have 32 samples of latency (even if the plug-ins need more samples for processing).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-09-2013, 02:12 PM
Dism Dism is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -JK- View Post
The only thing that I can imagine is that the output buffer is automatically set to the amount of samples the delay compensation is reporting. I still can't think of a way how it should be possible to record with plug-ins and still have 32 samples of latency (even if the plug-ins need more samples for processing).
Well... they claim to have figured it out. At this point, only time will tell when users actually start getting their hands on the software.
__________________

D
a n t h e I n c r e d i b l e S o u n d M a n

"Svetlana" v1 - 4.2GHz i7, 16GB RAM, OSX 10.7.4
Liquid Saffire 56 - PT10.2 - BFD2, VCC, Duende Native, Play 3.0

_C U R R E N T-D V E R B-S C O R E:515
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-09-2013, 02:14 PM
DetroitT's Avatar
DetroitT DetroitT is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Detroit, Mi, USA
Posts: 2,110
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

DC-Out (High) ---- Listening
DC-in (Low) -----Playing to the above without noticeable delay

Or the old/current way

DC-Out (High) ---- Listening
DC-in (Same High) -----Playing to the above with noticeable delay

How they do this is for programmers (and Discovery's How it's Made)
As a user, if this works, I'm happy.
One less thing to keep adjusting.
__________________
(Help us Help You)<<<click here

Testing:All APFS 90% 10% Audio on HFS+(Testing 1.5 yr in)
Pro Tools U-2019.6 MacOS 10.14.6
Second boot-10.13.6 (Avid HDX-1 Omni)

(MP 5,1 / 64-Gb)
(Sapphire RX-580 MacVCEdition, 3-Displays)
MOTU FW-CoreAudio (for poly recording)
(SSL-HUI-MIDI over IP)
----
music-design-creation
Post Music-Sound mixing, Production-Enhancements.

Audio Tuning and System Services
----
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-09-2013, 03:41 PM
propower propower is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 2,202
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

No facts - but here is my conjecture...

It is simple to take existing tracks and time shift them in the application so they all play together no matter what plugins are present.

For the input side it seems quite illogical that you can have any plug in present to monitor through that adds any substantial delay to the input buffer. With the AAX improvements a great number of EQ's and Dynamics should be zero delay adders. Guitar simulators and other VI's is where it becomes not as clear. At some point the delay of one of these could exceed the input buffer.
__________________
2017 27" iMac 3.8GHz i5, 1TB SSD
Logic ProX, Studio One V4, PT2019.x Orion Studio 2017, Apogee Ensemble TB
Musician: http://www.ivanlee.net/
Design Engineer: http://www.propowerinc.com/resume.html
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-09-2013, 03:46 PM
Dism Dism is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,154
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by propower View Post
Guitar simulators and other VI's is where it becomes not as clear. At some point the delay of one of these could exceed the input buffer.
See this is where I become interested in how the separate buffer system works. Eventually, there will be delay added if you load up the tracks enough. I want to know how that will affect the delay of a buffer set at 32.
__________________

D
a n t h e I n c r e d i b l e S o u n d M a n

"Svetlana" v1 - 4.2GHz i7, 16GB RAM, OSX 10.7.4
Liquid Saffire 56 - PT10.2 - BFD2, VCC, Duende Native, Play 3.0

_C U R R E N T-D V E R B-S C O R E:515
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-09-2013, 04:14 PM
mykhal c's Avatar
mykhal c mykhal c is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: san fran
Posts: 4,355
Default Re: Who else doesn't get how different input and output buffers shall work?

the number of gets is reduced on the playback buffer therefore reducin' the CPU load for reads durin' playback of all trax except those in record mode. the ADC still takes care of timing playback. the old/current way places a HUGE load on the entire session because the record/playback buffers are the same. so if you have 100 trax all at 32 buffer the gets and puts are workin' their azzes off. reduce the gets for reads and your cpu load goes down...a lot!!! make sense??? maybe???
__________________
bassist...deep pocketz anyone???!!!

The Basschakra Lucid Soul Trip

i7 Builds - Specs and Results

HDNative | Omni | i7-3930K OC'd 4.0GHZ |
ASUS X79 Sabertooth | 32GB GSkill DDR3 2133 ram | mo' stuff
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help! I can't get my main output to work, and I can't make a stereo output! oceanlove_1 Pro Tools 9 1 06-27-2011 05:23 AM
Out of System Exclusive Output Buffers James and Julieah Pro Tools M-Powered (Win) 0 01-22-2007 10:27 PM
input-output buffers - Compensated for??? Dunewar Tips & Tricks 1 01-27-2006 04:30 AM
Can I use a PA output as an input for Mbox? dklcn 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Win) 5 12-12-2005 02:19 PM
Please help, no output / input from 001 jdavis74 003, Mbox 2, Digi 002, original Mbox, Digi 001 (Mac) 3 04-03-2003 07:18 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:24 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited. Forum Hosted By: URLJet.com