DSP Effects

[Steve_Brown]

Thought this may interest some people....

http://www.petrucciforum.com/forums/...itively-Priced

[Idisagree]

Meh... Typical fractal vs. 11r vs. line 6 discussion. The only unusual thing is that discussion didn't end up coming to verbal blows. I don't really care that Cliff is a digital "philanthropist" by offering his product for 2k or more. Seems like people keep him on a pedestal. It's rather sad. I've been to his forum and he can come off as sort of an ass. I dig my 11r and I wont be shelling out the dough any time soon so I can spend the rest of my days tweaking sounds from a terrible UI... To each their own.

[zedhed]

Originally Posted by Steve_Brown

Thought this may interest some people....

I can't imagine why.

Hey you're not Cary in disguise are you?

Some of us around here will remember that debate.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by Steve_Brown

Thought this may interest some people....

http://www.petrucciforum.com/forums/...itively-Priced

Heres my take on the whole thing:

• 11R: Great Price, Great Modelling, could use some more FX + IR's, should untangle itself from PT, and always offer the latest PT (free). Well that would make my day and turn me back into an avid Avid fan.
• Line 6: solid modelling, good price, large range of FX. Would I change to it hell no!
• Axe FX: middling->great modelling, price way too much, great range of FX, after hearing an honest to goodness comparison between this and 11R there is no way known to man I would even change to this. Couldn't see myself fiddling with every parameter known to man to get a good sound, quote, "The learning curve on these units are quite steep, so be patient" , end quote. Promise of "profiling" to come - won't hold my breath.
• Kemper: near perfect->perfect modelling ... err sampling or whatever. Very lean on FX a little heavy of the price side but less than Axe FX just, more of a plug 'n' play unit like the 11R a huge plus. Do I really need a unit capable of reproducing any amp but with only 4 FX? That is the $2,600 question!

[aaron.ferrer]

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

Heres my take on the whole thing:

• 11R: Great Price, Great Modelling, could use some more FX + IR's, should untangle itself from PT, and always offer the latest PT (free). Well that would make my day and turn me back into an avid Avid fan.
• Line 6: solid modelling, good price, large range of FX. Would I change to it hell no!
• Axe FX: middling->great modelling, price way too much, great range of FX, after hearing an honest to goodness comparison between this and 11R there is no way known to man I would even change to this. Couldn't see myself fiddling with every parameter known to man to get a good sound, quote, "The learning curve on these units are quite steep, so be patient" , end quote. Promise of "profiling" to come - won't hold my breath.
• Kemper: near perfect->perfect modelling ... err sampling or whatever. Very lean on FX a little heavy of the price side but less than Axe FX just, more of a plug 'n' play unit like the 11R a huge plus. Do I really need a unit capable of reproducing any amp but with only 4 FX? That is the $2,600 question!

I just bought an Ultra for $1200. Standards and ultras are going for 1100-1400 all day now. I don't see myself ever needing the Axe II.

Profiling has already been demo'd. If cliff says it's coming, it's coming.

You don't have to fiddle with every parameter. Besides the main eq/drive page, I adjust the sag (poweramp simulation) and the high cut and low cut.

The Axe is as deep as you want it to be.

It's like people who use two parametric eq's on their 11R patches. you don't have to, but you CAN.

• Auto engage pitch shifter and wah is fun. I also use an expression pedal to cross fade between my drive and clean amp sims.
  2 footswitch/pedal inputs. Up to 8 universally assignable controllers (say I assign an expression pedal to the External 1 CC on the axe. I can use that one CC for wah, or volume, or pitch or whatever I want on a per-patch basis).
• Auto engage tap tempo delay is great as well.
• Map effects to ANY CC.
• Adjust the taper/curve of any expression pedal.
• Global effects/delay volume.
• Global TAP TEMPO! SPILLOVER.
• TWO GLOBAL EQ. (one for each output, for example, one for the no cab signal to poweramp, and one for the board)
• CAB SIMS TO THE BOARD AND NO CAB SIM TO THE AMP.
• OPEN SOURCE EDITOR CAPABILITY
• DEDICATED CONTROLLER!

Just these things were worth the extra few hundred on top of the 11R for me. Some of these features, especially the bolded capitalized ones are some of the frequently asked features for the 11R. The last one, some people have even noted that they would pay for it! Axe Edit is a great patch editor, and integrates the patch sharing community.

I don't want to start a heated debate here, so I'm going to get to my point. The 11R sounds GREAT. I ran the 11R into the axe for the cab sims and it's pretty darn close! BUT! I play live a lot, and the Axe G1 just has so many things that cater to the live player, more than anything. Why do we have to be so vehemently against either one? I'm not worried about needing the 2

I STILL have my 11R. But it stays in the studio rack, or the other guitarist in my band uses it.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by aaron.ferrer

Just these things were worth the extra few hundred on top of the 11R for me. S

Ok, lets take a look at that. Retail here for the:

• 11R @ $1,200
• Axe FXII @ $3,300
• Kemper @ $2,499

Let's be honest that's a little more than a few extra hundred.

I am not vehmently against a piece of technology. But we have had some Axe FX users here in the past and it left a rather large distaste in my mouth chief among them Scott Peterson and another couple of users as well. And as for the man Cliff Chase himself, my goodness after reading some of the things he has said in the past ... how that man is still in business is a mystery. I remember once a comment he said in a post on the Axe FX forum, around the time of the Axe II launch and after a couple of minutes the moderators had removed it. Even the poor ol' moderators have to look at what the big boss-man says.

And great that the profiling has been demo'ed, I mean that will give more opportunity for AXE FX users to gloat about how great there machine is. I remember when the Kemper was first announced Mr Chase was talking down the technology saying that he had considered going that route but considered it inferior - and then we fast forward a couple of years and suddenly, it's not inferior anymore but a must-have feature.

No I won't reward Fractal with my hard earned, and I mean "hard".

[aaron.ferrer]

You make some good points. Let me respectfully offer my reply, and we'll try to leave it civilized.

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

Ok, lets take a look at that. Retail here for the:

• 11R @ $1,200
• Axe FXII @ $3,300
• Kemper @ $2,499

Let's be honest that's a little more than a few extra hundred.

I never spoke of the Axe Fx II. I spoke of the Axe Fx Ultra and standard. My 11R, early last year, was bought used for $700 USD and some change. Without the ERXP. Now, the SAME unit is going for the SAME price that my unit was NEW, but they now have PT10 and the ERXP added. As far as business practices go, that's pretty damn crappy. It's not a new generation unit either. Axe Fx Ultra was $1200 for me.

If the prices are too high in Australia, is that not a problem you should take up with your government and it's import/export taxes?

I am not vehmently against a piece of technology. But we have had some Axe FX users here in the past and it left a rather large distaste in my mouth chief among them Scott Peterson and another couple of users as well. And as for the man Cliff Chase himself, my goodness after reading some of the things he has said in the past ... how that man is still in business is a mystery. I remember once a comment he said in a post on the Axe FX forum, around the time of the Axe II launch and after a couple of minutes the moderators had removed it. Even the poor ol' moderators have to look at what the big boss-man says.

So it's fine to judge a whole on the basis of a few? So because of Scott's opinions and statements, any products he endorses or has helped develop, you are against? Because he says great things about the 11R, and helped develop the Eleven Plug in.

Why not stop eating restaurant and supermarket turkey and chicken? I can't see how they are still in business knowing that they rip feathers off the fowl and pour boiling hot water down their throats while they are alive. How about bovine farms that feed ground up leftovers of other cows to cows? You should definitely stop driving gas/petrol vehicles and using the bus because it's enlarging that hole in the ozone and contributing to pollution.

I don't agree with everything cliff says, believe me. He isn't instigating war between countries or defrauding governments for money, or committing animal inhumanities or genocide here.

For that matter, how is Avid any better than Fractal? Great product, but it really steams me that other people are paying what *I* paid, but getting much mor eout of the deal.


And great that the profiling has been demo'ed, I mean that will give more opportunity for AXE FX users to gloat about how great there machine is. I remember when the Kemper was first announced Mr Chase was talking down the technology saying that he had considered going that route but considered it inferior - and then we fast forward a couple of years and suddenly, it's not inferior anymore but a must-have feature.

So Cliff is not allowed to change his mind? Was I not allowed to discover that the eleven rack has sounds that are just as good as my Mesa or Soldano? I was a tube snob before, when modeling was in it's infancy, but did I make a mistake by getting an eleven rack? Is that against the rules?

He stated that there are inherent flaws in profiling, and there are. The Kemper is a great unit that I tried, and the EQ range works well, but not the same as the original amp. It's also unable to fully remove the cab and microphone from the profile. Cliff's goal is to try to get an entire amp into his units. I believe since the tech in the Kemper was kept under wraps and only heard on the internet, Cliff (like me) assumed it was profiling the way that the first generation of modelers modeled their tones.

No I won't reward Fractal with my hard earned, and I mean "hard".
"Hard Earned" means different things to different people. Buying used hardly puts any money in Avid or Fractal's pockets.

Again, I just wanted to offer my points here. They are both great units, and I'm not letting silly business politics get in the way of me getting the sound I have in my head. Even with Avid's weak support for the early adopters (and I was far from early) I still enjoy using the 11R.

Cheers

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by aaron.ferrer

So it's fine to judge a whole on the basis of a few? So because of Scott's opinions and statements, any products he endorses or has helped develop, you are against? Because he says great things about the 11R, and helped develop the Eleven Plug in.

Why not stop eating restaurant and supermarket turkey and chicken? I can't see how they are still in business knowing that they rip feathers off the fowl and pour boiling hot water down their throats while they are alive. How about bovine farms that feed ground up leftovers of other cows to cows? You should definitely stop driving gas/petrol vehicles and using the bus because it's enlarging that hole in the ozone and contributing to pollution.

Cheers

The prices of the units are set by the companies selling the products and their Australian distributors. The taxes/import duties set by government are quite small in comparison to the overall product. And when you factor in that the Australian dollar is higher than the US currency.....

For the record the hole is the ozone is not getting larger. We know this in Australia as we are the prime target for the ozone spinning around leaving our country unprotected, we have the highest incidents of melanoma in the world as a result. About 5 years ago I believe studies done in Antartica by Australia scientists showed the ozone hole had not gotten any larger and in fact was starting to replenish.

As for the statement a few, I was trying to be civil, I was just pointing out the users a few of us would remember on this boards. And in that case it was a few - very vocal, very annoying, very deleted threads.

On the case of other forums, yes the Axe FX fanbois are very annoying, very vocal and very numerous.

Of course, Cliff can change his mind, it's very obvious that he did!

"Hard earned" means I do hard physical work with very little monetary reward, where overtime, sick-leave is non-existent. If there is another definition please let me know.

[aaron.ferrer]

Originally Posted by vercingetorix

the prices of the units are set by the companies selling the products and their australian distributors. The taxes/import duties set by government are quite small in comparison to the overall product. And when you factor in that the australian dollar is higher than the us currency.....

then please, be the australian who creates a product that will make avid and fractal price themselves competitively. Last I checked, Australia has a waiting list for a coupon for an axe fx at $2679 AUD

for the record the hole is the ozone is not getting larger. We know this in australia as we are the prime target for the ozone spinning around leaving our country unprotected, we have the highest incidents of melanoma in the world as a result. About 5 years ago i believe studies done in antartica by australia scientists showed the ozone hole had not gotten any larger and in fact was starting to replenish.

it gets smaller and larger at times. Since freon was changed a few years back, and cfc containing products are slowly diminishing, it has definitely helped. In fact, during september the ozone hole in antartica was reported as getting large last september, as it does annually. So you know, stop smoking and using electricity and vehicles powered by petrol and other ozone depleting chemicals?

as for the statement a few, i was trying to be civil, i was just pointing out the users a few of us would remember on this boards. And in that case it was a few - very vocal, very annoying, very deleted threads.

On the case of other forums, yes the axe fx fanbois are very annoying, very vocal and very numerous.

are they any worse than the multitudes of analog gear fanboys?

of course, cliff can change his mind, it's very obvious that he did!

so why even bring up that point? I mean, were not any of us skeptical about digital modeling before? Did no one feel digital modeling was even a little bit inferior to tube amps?

"hard earned" means i do hard physical work with very little monetary reward, where overtime, sick-leave is non-existent. If there is another definition please let me know.
depends. I did hard, physical work for 23 months in afghanistan. My other jobs pale in comparison, including the one I have now.

:d