Still no solution for Analog Summing delay compensation

[Franklyn]

(I also wrote this in an old PT 10 thread.)

Is there any thing planed by Avid to solve this problem?

The thing is I want to mix into my masterbus. I think thats a typical way of mixing nowadays. so, if I send my subgroups (dr, vocals, ...) to the analog summing mixer and the summing master out back to the DAW I have some delay witch can not be compensated. And it is improtand to compensate it, because I use automation on the mixbus (after the summing in the DAW) and so it is important that the summing return is in sync with my session.

The only way to compensated hardware inserts (nearly sample sync) is with I/O inserts. but in a summing scenario you should have a 8 or 16 I/O insert to tell ProTools whats going on. And there is no option for Inserting multi channels of 8 or 16.

the video with Fab is showing how to setup the 2 bus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gW18nrUJOI
but his print track is delayed and he is not talking about that problem.

I dont understand why there is no solution in ProTols to compensate summing I/O

monitoring the analog out of the 2 bus makes no sense in a modern mixing scenario.

[LDS]

That has been the nature of 2 track returns pretty well forever. Even on analogue desks there would be latency as a result of the spacing between record and playback heads on a reel to reel tape machine. I'm not quite sure what there is to gain by implementing delay compensation in such a scenario?

[The Weed]

Can you not use the I/O dialogue and enter the hardware insert delay? If this isn't what you mean, my apologies.

From the 2020.5 PTRM:

"H/W Insert Delay (Compensation) Page

To compensate for the delay (latency) of any external hardware devices (such as an effects unit) used in your session, you can set the amount of Hardware Insert Delay Compensation (in milliseconds) for each external device. These times will be used
by the Delay Compensation Engine to time-align input paths when the hardware insert is in use and Delay Compensation is enabled.

For more information, see “Setting a Hardware Insert Delay Offset” on page 1106."

[Franklyn]

The I/O insert delay is only working for mono or stereo inserts on the same In and out channel of your interface.

for summing you had to compensate the routing of 8 or 16 outputs of you interface to as stereo input pair. but there is no option to tell ProTools to do this.

IMO it would be possible to implement this option. You need a special I/O insert dialog witch allows to "route" individual interface outs to individual interface ins.

its like multichannel I/O but with more outs than ins. this would be great option.

A lot of people like to summ analog. but to monitor the anaolg out of your summing mixer makes no sense in a modern mixing solution, because you want to hear and mix into the masterbus plug ins behind the summing.

Summing should be possible as an insert in PT.

[Darryl Ramm]

This may be this evening's margaritas still talking.... but can't you fake this here (asks he not having tried it, or caring about hardware mixing, or exactly why this is needed... as jack says below......). All you need is for Pro Tools to know the stereo return from the hardware mixer is delayed like it would be on a straight through physical insert.

So make that mixer return an insert on a track Pro Tools does not know there is no output on that track going anywhere and the input coming back in is a mix from elsewhere... but it should knows there is a fixed latency to correct that return for... that would seem it might work if the delay comp happens after the insert return ... if it made before the insert output... could you pair up all the outputs with physical return inputs but not physically connected to anything but just using them to get a delay compensation made.

Send me a pair of loaded MTRX and I'll demonstrate

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Franklyn

The I/O insert delay is only working for mono or stereo inserts on the same In and out channel of your interface.

for summing you had to compensate the routing of 8 or 16 outputs of you interface to as stereo input pair. but there is no option to tell ProTools to do this.

IMO it would be possible to implement this option. You need a special I/O insert dialog witch allows to "route" individual interface outs to individual interface ins.

its like multichannel I/O but with more outs than ins. this would be great option.

A lot of people like to summ analog. but to monitor the anaolg out of your summing mixer makes no sense in a modern mixing solution, because you want to hear and mix into the masterbus plug ins behind the summing.

Summing should be possible as an insert in PT.

You can still do that using outboard. You would only be listening to the return from the outboard coming back into PT anyways - you wouldn't be listening to both the outboard and return at the same time. Please tell us why you would want to do that - you can hear the changes in the return signal as you make them. The audio doesn't need to sync up. I guess you've never worked with analog tape back in the day.

[Franklyn]

Originally Posted by musicman691

You can still do that using outboard. You would only be listening to the return from the outboard coming back into PT anyways - you wouldn't be listening to both the outboard and return at the same time. Please tell us why you would want to do that - you can hear the changes in the return signal as you make them. The audio doesn't need to sync up. I guess you've never worked with analog tape back in the day.

thanx for your answer musicman691

I worked with analog tape in the 80/90s.
And I work with PT since the late 90s. PT Mix, PT HD and now with PT Ultimate (native) and 2 apollo interfaces.

I dont want to hear the analog summing out and the digital return at the same time.

You dont under stand my point. It is importand that the return to my DAW masterbus is synced, because I have plug ins and synced AUTOMATION on the mix bus and all this should be in grid.

And when the complete analog summing stage is compensated (like a hardware I/O) it would also be possible to play some overdub tracks to the mix with no timing problems.

For me its importand to stay in GRID also on the masterbus.

And the good thing is, I found a solution to do this. I will post this in the next days.

Frank

[musicman691]

Originally Posted by Franklyn

thanx for your answer musicman691

I worked with analog tape in the 80/90s.
And I work with PT since the late 90s. PT Mix, PT HD and now with PT Ultimate (native) and 2 apollo interfaces.

I dont want to hear the analog summing out and the digital return at the same time.

You dont under stand my point. It is importand that the return to my DAW masterbus is synced, because I have plug ins and synced AUTOMATION on the mix bus and all this should be in grid.

And when the complete analog summing stage is compensated (like a hardware I/O) it would also be possible to play some overdub tracks to the mix with no timing problems.

For me its importand to stay in GRID also on the masterbus.

And the good thing is, I found a solution to do this. I will post this in the next days.

Frank

Are you saying that you have plugins and automation on the summing return? People do overdubs all the time to a recorded mix and they've learned to deal with it without drama.

[originalscottyg]

Are you returning the summed signal to an audio track and recording it? Or are you returning the summed signal to an Aux or Master fader? It might be possible to measure the latency, then enter it manually in the compensation field of the return track using the user offset field "+/- 0"in the delay compensation view in the mix window. If you are returning the signal to an audio track, make sure to force delay compensation by ctrl-cmd clicking (Mac) the cmp field when the track is in input or record (you don't need to do this for Aux tracks). Then record a transient through your summing chain, measure the offset and enter it into the user offset field, experimenting with + vs - until you get it lined up. I'm not totally sure this will work in real-time, but it's worth a shot. OF course the most reliable method would be to record the summed signal, measure the offset, then nudge it back into place and then do your automation and processing on the recorded track.

[Franklyn]

Thanx originalscottyg

I return my summed signal to an AUX in, because I want to work on the mix and I want to use the analog summing as a plug in with automatic delay compensation when I work on the mix.

manually offset of delays is no good option IMO. And the delay depends on the buffer setting, so I have to adjust it every time new when changing the buffer.
BTW, its not possible to set negativ offsets on AUX returns.

But, As I said, I found a solution for ADC of the analog summing and It works absolute perfect :) I will post it the next days. I´m so glad to find this solution.