PRO TOOLS EXPORT TO CUBASE IMPORT TIMING ISSUE

[mishar]

man, if i felt like i had to manually calculate latency on every track in PTLE that i used a plugin on, then it'd truly be time to choose another program. don't spend that 2.09cents in one place...spread it around

I hate to say it mykhal.... but unfortunately that is exactly what you end up having to do in LE if you want to do things properly.

For my own use I gave up trying to mix in Protools LE and got into Cubase. I did several mixes in LE and just found it too time consuming, constantly having to adjust, do the math, make sure it was right, because it takes away from the creativity of mixing. So now I do all my editing in Protools LE and then consolidate and export to Cubase and mix there. It might sound tedious, but it actually saves me a LOT of time and headaches.

Until I can afford a Protools HD rig, or they implement ADC within LE, I won't be changing my habits, and I STRONGLY recommend that especially those people who are unaware of how latency works, read up on it, and make sure they understand all aspects of it.

You wouldn't want to fly a plane now without knowing what the altimeter does now, would you ??

I offered someone 1.09 cents for a Protools HD Rig this morning ... and got laughed at .... spreading the love doesn't always work ....:P

[mykhal c]

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Ok Mykhal - begging your indulgence ....

There is a pk value and a dly value - assume the dly value is what you are talking about - so if it says 580, I need to nudge it back 580 up where it says Start End Length - I assume I am working in time and not samples here. So, if the beat were on the 1, after the nudge it would say 1 | 4 | 420 .... right?

I have a couple of tracks I have had extreme timing issues on and I guess I skipped this part of the manual!!! I want to make sure I get this right.


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Yes .... that value should be right, but like I said, if you want to be sure, you have to test it.
The dly value is actually samples, not time. So make sure you adjust in samples.
And yes, if you have a track with 580 samples delay on it, that would definately be causing your headaches. (580 samples = ca 13ms delay @ 44.1kHz)

Another neat little trick....instead of nudging it ....try this ...
select the region you want to adjust... and hit Alt-H (option-H on a mac)

And a dialog box will pop up asking you how much forward or backward you want to move the region and you can select time, bars-beats or samples for the amount.

That is exactly why you see all the proponents for ADC (Automatic Delay Compensation) around here. Protools LE is the only program around now that doesn't have it, and sorely needs it.

hey jim. i'm really sorry it's provin' to be such a pain for ya. as the other cat, mishar replied, it is in samples. and like him, i use the ALT+H to move/nudge my region/trax earlier or later. personally i have not had any issues mixin' in PTLE while adjustin' for the lack ADC. there are some great threads that have discussed this but PTLE IS WHAT IT IS!!! so we either choose to deal or not!! know what i mean???

as efficient and accurate as mishar might feel his method is, PERSONALLY, just me personally, i think it's overkill!! i'll choose to check what PTLE is tellin' me in regards to the delay and adjust. and REALLY, it ALL comes down to feel, IMHO, my friend. i think some people can get toooooooooooooo carried away with the 'exact' math and lose the feel they are after. i've played bass on albums/recordings for artists goin' straight to 2 inch at times (no editin' period) and we produced some great trax, IMHO it's about capturin' the music and the feel of the music, again IMHO.

and i'll say this to about trustin' the reportin' of the latency. again, from my experience, PTLE reports with accuracy the same amount of latency that the actual plugin companies report their latency to be. so if i read what mishar is sayin' then he believes that to NOT be the case. well i happen NOT to agree with that statement. NOW MAYBE he's usin' some plugs that i don't. so again, i've found the reportin' of latency in PTLE to be on point, at least with the plugins i use...ie...WAVES DIAMOND, DIGI, and a few others.

and i'll shut up on this note, it sounds like MAYBE the DV TOOLKIT is what you're needin'???!!! sounds like exportin' to an OMF format and havin' your CUBASE partners import that in MIGHT BE your REAL solution!!???!! i know, more money!! but regardless my friend, make it FEEL GOOD!!!!

[mishar]

Mykhal.... we're talking about opinions here, which in nature can be very subjective. No need to wet your pants.

If you read what I said properly ... 'If all else fails, then.....'. Does that sound like a method that I would use constantly. No ...it's a method I use when all else fails.
And I'm just pointing out options to Jim, which I've used on many occassions in real life in many studios. It's up to him to choose the information that he gets and use it to on his own accord, which I'm sure he will.

You have the Sansamp plugin I'm sure.... have you actually tried it and looked at what the latency values say?

And you're whole argument about feel is exactly why I don't like Protools LE, because having latency not reported is exactly what screws with the feel. Try this ...take your 24 track song ... nudge every track 10 samples randomly either way, and see how your feel sits now.
That's exactly what is happening with plugins now. And it's a subtle thing... and if you don't care...that's completely your perogative. But it's my job as an engineer to care about such things. And so should we all.

The 2 pop beep has been used for decades now, long before anyone even dreamt up software called Protools. It might seem archaeic, but I can tell you this ....it sure as hell works everytime.

Sorry if I've caused a raucus and touched any nerves here.

[Jim Casey]

Mykhal.... we're talking about opinions here, which in nature can be very subjective. No need to wet your pants.

If you read what I said properly ... 'If all else fails, then.....'. Does that sound like a method that I would use constantly. No ...it's a method I use when all else fails.
And I'm just pointing out options to Jim, which I've used on many occassions in real life in many studios. It's up to him to choose the information that he gets and use it to on his own accord, which I'm sure he will.

You have the Sansamp plugin I'm sure.... have you actually tried it and looked at what the latency values say?

And you're whole argument about feel is exactly why I don't like Protools LE, because having latency not reported is exactly what screws with the feel. Try this ...take your 24 track song ... nudge every track 10 samples randomly either way, and see how your feel sits now.
That's exactly what is happening with plugins now. And it's a subtle thing... and if you don't care...that's completely your perogative. But it's my job as an engineer to care about such things. And so should we all.

The 2 pop beep has been used for decades now, long before anyone even dreamt up software called Protools. It might seem archaeic, but I can tell you this ....it sure as hell works everytime.

Sorry if I've caused a raucus and touched any nerves here.

Hey Mishar - the track we were working with lined up fine when it was consolidated and pulled out of the session files folder. BUT, I needed to process it. I thought for sure your "beep method" would work but the processed track still would not work without shifting that beep left. Is there something that is happening during a bounce????

Also Mykhal - I agree with you about feel and I have spent a considerable amount of time aligning waveforms to a grid - so, ya know? I know they want us to buy HD, but this is kind of stupid. Using your method the CLICK TRACK is off 10 samples. What about STRIKE! - how in the hell do we accomodate STRIKE! ???????????????

SO you are saying Cubase has ADC??? Can I use my 002 as a sound card for it?

[Jim Casey]

hey jim. i'm really sorry it's provin' to be such a pain for ya. as the other cat, mishar replied, it is in samples. and like him, i use the ALT+H to move/nudge my region/trax earlier or later. personally i have not had any issues mixin' in PTLE while adjustin' for the lack ADC. there are some great threads that have discussed this but PTLE IS WHAT IT IS!!! so we either choose to deal or not!! know what i mean???

as efficient and accurate as mishar might feel his method is, PERSONALLY, just me personally, i think it's overkill!! i'll choose to check what PTLE is tellin' me in regards to the delay and adjust. and REALLY, it ALL comes down to feel, IMHO, my friend. i think some people can get toooooooooooooo carried away with the 'exact' math and lose the feel they are after. i've played bass on albums/recordings for artists goin' straight to 2 inch at times (no editin' period) and we produced some great trax, IMHO it's about capturin' the music and the feel of the music, again IMHO.

and i'll say this to about trustin' the reportin' of the latency. again, from my experience, PTLE reports with accuracy the same amount of latency that the actual plugin companies report their latency to be. so if i read what mishar is sayin' then he believes that to NOT be the case. well i happen NOT to agree with that statement. NOW MAYBE he's usin' some plugs that i don't. so again, i've found the reportin' of latency in PTLE to be on point, at least with the plugins i use...ie...WAVES DIAMOND, DIGI, and a few others.

and i'll shut up on this note, it sounds like MAYBE the DV TOOLKIT is what you're needin'???!!! sounds like exportin' to an OMF format and havin' your CUBASE partners import that in MIGHT BE your REAL solution!!???!! i know, more money!! but regardless my friend, make it FEEL GOOD!!!!

What would the DV Toolkit bring to the table?

[mishar]

Just to clarify...... you placed the beep in your track so it looks like this:

....beep......musicmusicmusicmusic(orig)

and after your bounce with a plugin it should look like this:

....beep......musicmusicmusicmusic(orig)
......beep......musicmusicmusicmusic(bounce)

and now you would pull the region back so that the beeps line up exactly, and it should look like this:

....beep......musicmusicmusicmusic(orig)
....beep......musicmusicmusicmusic(bounce)

Correct me if I'm wrong now, but you're saying that if you line the beeps up, then the music isn't in the right place eg:

....beep......musicmusicmusicmusic(orig)
....beep.......musicmusicmusicmusic(bounce)

So you have to shift your beep to the left to make the music line up ?
Like this?

....beep......musicmusicmusicmusic(orig)
...beep.......musicmusicmusicmusic(bounce)


If this is the case, then that could mean that your plugin has variable latency, which is possible, but definately not common. The only plugins that do this are usually pitch plugins, like Autotune, Waves Tune etc.
Which plugin are you using ?? just out of curiosity?

Yes Cubase has full ADC, meaning that it will compensate for latency wherever it is in the chain. Although I'll be the first to admit, it's not bulletproof either, but it beats haveing to move things around everytime. And yes you could use it with a 002 ... that's exactly what I do.

The DV Toolkit gives you Digitranslator, which allows you to import and export your songs in what's called OMF format. OMF is included with Cubase, so it supposedly allows you to transfer files to and fro just like opening up a Protools session. I haven't used it myself though, and I can't vouch for it either way. Consolidating files works just fine for me

[mykhal c]

Mykhal.... we're talking about opinions here, which in nature can be very subjective. No need to wet your pants.

you know man, i just DO NOT dig nor appreciate how you bring your subjective opinion. you had an earlier UNNECESSARY dig also. and you are fully aware of how you are bringin' it. i'll leave it at that....

[mykhal c]

Also Mykhal - I agree with you about feel and I have spent a considerable amount of time aligning waveforms to a grid - so, ya know? I know they want us to buy HD, but this is kind of stupid. Using your method the CLICK TRACK is off 10 samples. What about STRIKE! - how in the hell do we accomodate STRIKE! ???????????????

SO you are saying Cubase has ADC??? Can I use my 002 as a sound card for it?

jim, pls know that your effort does come across! correct me if i'm wrong but it seems like you want everything right in the center of the beat, dead center, exactly the center??!!! right??? if that is the case then IMHO, you will NEED to PRINT/PROCESS EVERY track you are workin' with, click track included. then adjust the processed track. it's not how i work but it seems like this MIGHT be the only way you will feel 'comfortable' with PTLE's end result!!??!! what i do when this is needed is, instead of processin' the track, i will duplicate the playlist then take the new playlist and adjust it accordin' to the latency reported. so usin' your previous example of 580 samples of latency, my new playlist would be moved 580 samples earlier than the prev playlist with the plugin still inserted. so again, in your case, this WOULD BE the track that i would process and forward to your co-writers. BUT AGAIN this is just my way of handlin' it. for me, again, there comes a point where i just go to my ears. i'm not worried about anythin' else EXCEPT how it FEELS

and as was answered previously, yes you can use your 002 as your sound card with CUBASE.

and as frustrated as you are right now, know that there is a solution for ya, whether it be PTLE or CUBASE

[Jim Casey]

Mykhal and Mishar,

Between all of this and testing we managed to pull off one beep to beep that worked and one calc that worked, though I still do not know how because I did it last night - you know how that is.

Now, I am confused.

When you ctrl-click into the volume thing you get two values - one that says "pk" and one that says "dly." Frankly, I think adjusting for the "pk" did it - but I am still confused so do you guys know exactly what those acronyms stand for?

I know this about feel but I want to have things dead-on digitally - playing-wise is something all together because I am a veteran of 48 track tape also - and my first full pro-tools project had timing problems all over the place and I could not really figure out why - so I had to solo each track and slip it to the click track - which, when you are doing that you have to be relatively complete about it to I ended up dissecting tracks for days.

I use a lot of plug-ins on bass and gtr and I want to make sure they (at least the bass!) syncs to the drum part. So, I want to make dead sure that I am doing that. I sync the drums to the click and then lay the bass down straight and then I add the plugins - and then there begins the shaky foundation - so right there is where I need to nip it.

So, you guys have gotten me miles closer in terms of trouble shooting my own tracks and exporting them to collaborators - I just want to get those two things straight - the "pk" and the "dly."

Your continuing help is appreciated.

[spkguitar]

pk = "Peak" - displays the last peak playback level. Has nothing to do with plugin delay.

dly = "Delay" - total delay in samples from the use of any plugin on the channel.