DM2000 and Pro Tools Interfaces Word Clock Problem

[joepopp]

Everything was clocking fine in PT 6.9 but when we upgraded to PT 7.1 cs3 the DM2000 now says that 2 of our 3 interfaces will not clock! We are using a Big Ben as a master clock. We are sending word clock out of the Big Ben directly to the word clock inputs of the the Digi interfaces and the Yamaha DM2000. There are 4 digital cards in the DM 2000 MY8-AE96 and we are connecting the audio through these digital cards.

We had this problem in another studio with earlier verison of PT6 and after 2 months of diagnostics figured out that it was a firmware problem with the Interfaces. The 4.3 Firmware would not work but the 3.0 firmware would.

We just built a new room and the Firmware on 2 of the interfaces is 4.9 and and 3.0 on the other. It worked fine in 6.9. Now after the 7 upgrade it will not clock.

The room with the 3.0 firmware on the interfaces works just fine with Pro Tools 7!

I am just wondering if anyone is experiencing the same problems using a digital console with digital cards, 4.9 Interface firmware, and a external clock source.

Apple Macintosh G5
HD2
Yamaha DM2000 with 4 MY8-AE96 Cards
ProTools 7.1
1 - Digidesign 192 I/O Firmware 3.0
1 - Digidesign 192 Digital Firmware 4.9
1 - Digidesign 192 I/O Firmware 4.9
Apogee Big Ben as a master clock with a direct word clock cable to each device.

[sykess]

Hi Joepopp,
I have a similar setup with the same clocking problem as you.
Macintosh G5 2.3 PCI-e
HD3
Yamaha DM2000 with 5 MY8-AE96 Cards
ProTools 7.1cs3
3 - Digidesign 192 Digitals but I don't know the firmware. they are brand new.
Apogee Big Ben as a master clock with a direct word clock cable to each device.
I was at NAMM last weekend and tried to ask two guys at the Digi booth why my Yamaha cards keep showing errors. They told me in a very condesending manner that I should only clock one 192 with Big Ben and use the loop sync to connect them all together. This does solve the card error problem but it is not the best way to clock the system. I wish somebody at Digi would fess up and tell me what has changed to make the 192s not like individual clocking from a Big Ben anymore.
I hope you and I can both get this resolved soon.
Let any of us DM2000 users know if you have come up with any answers.

Cheers, Steve Sykes

[DigiTechSupt]

The rep is correct - you should clock the first interface to the Big Ben (or whichever clock source you're using) and use the loop sync cables between the units.

Why do you think using the loop sync is not the best way? It truly IS the best way and the only way that we would ever recommend.

[sykess]

This is because only the first 192 in the chain is getting the benefit of a direct clocking signal from the master clock source. It seems to me that the other two 192s are getting a degraded clock from all of the extra connectors and cable. Unless digital audio clocking theories have changed in the last decade. (I stand corrected if they have). It has always been said that a star configuration is the best way to get clock to each unit.
By the way, this setup worked perfectly with my old mix plus system. I'm all ears on this subject and I don't mind being wrong because my system works with loop sync as you say but help me out here if you don't mind and tell me why a star configuration no longer works as it did in the past.

Thanks for any info you have on this. Cheers, Steve

[joepopp]

It seems you should be able to clock these individually so each one can receive the benefit of the Big Ben directly! The odd thing is that it works with the Firmware 3.0 interfaces with all versions of Pro Tools. 4.9 Firmware worked with 6.9 and then was broken in 7.1cs3. It seems like there was a fix and then the code got left out of 7? It just seems to me that this should work and you should not have to use the loop sync. I am not against using the loop sync if it works. I will try it!!!

[sacman]

I'm the director of the Sonic Arts Center where Joe Popp is the technical director. In June when we were grappling with this issue we devised many different tests to get to the heart of this problem. After several days of testing we discovered that if you took the AES/EBU out of the Big Ben and sent it to the 192 with the 4.3 firmware everything locked up! So the problem was directly related to using external word clock for sync. The 3.0 units worked fine with word clock as the external master as Joe stated. We were in touch with Digi the entire time during our testing and they concluded that we were correct that there were problems with the 4.3 units. Apparently they were concerned enough to address this problem with the 4.9 Firmware (in combination with Pro Tools 6.xx) because again as Joe stated that combination did work. Now with PT 7 and Firmware 4.9 the problem reoccurs. And now we're basically being told that using external word clock isn't an issue that the're concerned with.

If Digi is telling us that the only way to get proper sync is to use the loop sync why did they bother to address the issue in Firmware 4.9? I think Digi has got to let the user decide what is the best sync and not make unilateral decisions on our behalf. Give us the option to use either sync method and we'll decide what's best.

[joepopp]

Also, in Apogee's HD set up guide it specifically instructs you to connect each interface directly to the Big Ben. Perhaps Digi and Apogee can communicate on this.

I read a few posts saying that loop sync is better tahn using an external clock source. If this it true, perhaps someone can explain the technology a little bit. People have stated that it resolves the closk but if the clock is external and stable I am not sure why this is needed.

Thanks in advance!

[sykess]

To Digi Tech Support,

This thread needs to be bumped to the first page again so we can get some answers here.
We all know the proper way to clock a DM2000 and 192s. It just doesn't work anymore !!
I know that I'm not the only one here who has made a sizeable investment in a new HD system in the last 60 days. This issue needs some real attention other than reading me a script of what the manual says.
I have been in pro audio for over 30 years and it's starting to piss me off to even have to post a thread like this. As you can see, I normaly don't post at all in the 13 years that I've been using your products.
I have already been very polite in person at NAMM and on the DUC. Please !! Lets get some knowledgeable responses from the company. I am starting a high profile audiophile album in a few days with my DM2000 and HD3 system connected to it all D to D and I want the best possible clocking of the whole rig.

Thank you in advance for your time, Steve Sykes

[joepopp]

I agree! Bump it up!

Some tests:

I ran the big ben into the word clock input on the first interface. Then I used the loop sync connections to create a loop among all of the interfaces.

Well it works at 96K but won't work at 44.1!!!!!!

I also pulled all other digital connections except for the yamaha cards that are connected to the digital db25 digital connections on the interfaces.

What's up digi???

[joepopp]

bump