HDX and HD 44.1 and 48k in and out latency?

[Rich Breen]

Originally Posted by TNM

interesting..
...3x 3rd party dsp plugins in the monitoring chain would add 4ms latency! WOW!...

What plugs are you using that will have 175 samples of latency?

Latency needs to be managed regardless of what kind of system you're using, but an HDX rig is capable of very large high-sample rate sessions with minimal throughput latencies without having to crank buffers down to unstable levels, as long as you manage what kind of plugs you're using where. A native rig is capable of very low latencies as long as buffers can be kept very low. This topic has been discussed ad infinitum here, but maybe these posts might help you?

http://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=2368588&postcount=6

http://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=2420019&postcount=55

[albee1952]

To add to your confusion Don't write off HD/Native just yet. I run HDN here with a pair of HD IO boxes and a 192(with extra input card). While I run 32 live inputs, 16 live outputs and have 8 hardware insert paths available. HDN can handle 64 in and out. I also work at 48k about 98% of the time and track live bands(up to 32 live inputs and 6 stereo headphone mixes done with AUX sends, all built into my session templates). I run plenty of plugins while tracking, but choose carefully(according to latency). I have a dozen Channel Strip plugins(drums), at least 2 dozen EQ III 7-bands, a dozen BF76, 6 SMACK!, 7-8 Bomb Factory Pultecs, a couple of amp sims and several reverb and delay plugins. Sessions track at a 64 buffer setting(my bass amp sim reports 7 samples of latency). All works great and never a mention of latency in the phones.

I'm not telling you NOT to go HDX, just reminding you that you might be happy spending a few grand less(or spend it on more IO). The HDX card will offer nothing if you don't use Digilink hardware. UA plugins have a lot of latency if you use them in Pro Tools as opposed to running the UA "mixer". HDX may help that a little(and hopefully some HDX owners will verify this), but I find it impossible to track thru UA plugins(I have a Quad card installed). If I had the rig to do over again, I might have skipped the UAD card, or gone with Apollo interfaces and lived with the 32 IO limit. Personally, I won't knock the sound or converters of Apollo as I know too many very successful engineers using them and making hit recordings(at the end of the day, its not so much about the gear and way more about the skill on both sides of the glass)

[propower]

HDN Latency
Avid Omni + 16x16 Input 16x16 output Omni
96kHz I/O RT
64 samples 1.80ms
128 3.12ms
256 5.8ms
512 11.12ms
LLM 0.47ms

AVID OMNI - TB 44.1
32 samples 3.35ms
64 samples 4.80ms
128 7.68ms
256 13.52ms
LLM 1.9ms

HDX Latency as I remember it...
96kHz 0.45ms No busses or Submixes
0.6ms average for 1 send and submix
Lowest plugin latency 10 samples (0.1ms each - many AVID older ones)
3rd party plugin latency between 30 and 75 samples each.

44.1kHz 1.9ms No busses or Submixes
Plugins are same in samples - 10samples is 0.22ms
30 to 75 samples is 0.66ms to 1.7ms per plugin depending on what's used

[TNM]

Originally Posted by propower

HDN Latency
Avid Omni + 16x16 Input 16x16 output Omni
96kHz I/O RT
64 samples 1.80ms
128 3.12ms
256 5.8ms
512 11.12ms
LLM 0.47ms

AVID OMNI - TB 44.1
32 samples 3.35ms
64 samples 4.80ms
128 7.68ms
256 13.52ms
LLM 1.9ms

HDX Latency as I remember it...
96kHz 0.45ms No busses or Submixes
0.6ms average for 1 send and submix
Lowest plugin latency 10 samples (0.1ms each - many AVID older ones)
3rd party plugin latency between 30 and 75 samples each.

44.1kHz 1.9ms No busses or Submixes
Plugins are same in samples - 10samples is 0.22ms
30 to 75 samples is 0.66ms to 1.7ms per plugin depending on what's used

THANK YOU.
1.9 is similar to the apollo console and acceptable.. The problem is the 3rd party dsp plugins as they are what i'd want to monitor through. Between 30 and 75 samples each means my fear of a 4ms addon to the 1.9ms is possible unless I used avid plugins to track, which defeats the purpose for me.

180 samples roughly equals 4ms and looking at the various aax dsp plugin latencies, that seems very easy to achieve.

Ultimately, to use QUALITY fx at low latencies for monitoring, apollo has it beat handily. I can use lexicon verbs and the oxide tape and all sorts of things.

I am pretty sure I am going to stick with my apollo and just get an analog mixer to add i/o.
Cheers!

[TNM]

Originally Posted by albee1952

To add to your confusion Don't write off HD/Native just yet. I run HDN here with a pair of HD IO boxes and a 192(with extra input card). While I run 32 live inputs, 16 live outputs and have 8 hardware insert paths available. HDN can handle 64 in and out. I also work at 48k about 98% of the time and track live bands(up to 32 live inputs and 6 stereo headphone mixes done with AUX sends, all built into my session templates). I run plenty of plugins while tracking, but choose carefully(according to latency). I have a dozen Channel Strip plugins(drums), at least 2 dozen EQ III 7-bands, a dozen BF76, 6 SMACK!, 7-8 Bomb Factory Pultecs, a couple of amp sims and several reverb and delay plugins. Sessions track at a 64 buffer setting(my bass amp sim reports 7 samples of latency). All works great and never a mention of latency in the phones.

I'm not telling you NOT to go HDX, just reminding you that you might be happy spending a few grand less(or spend it on more IO). The HDX card will offer nothing if you don't use Digilink hardware. UA plugins have a lot of latency if you use them in Pro Tools as opposed to running the UA "mixer". HDX may help that a little(and hopefully some HDX owners will verify this), but I find it impossible to track thru UA plugins(I have a Quad card installed). If I had the rig to do over again, I might have skipped the UAD card, or gone with Apollo interfaces and lived with the 32 IO limit. Personally, I won't knock the sound or converters of Apollo as I know too many very successful engineers using them and making hit recordings(at the end of the day, its not so much about the gear and way more about the skill on both sides of the glass)

I WOULD go hd native with a nice 64 a/d HD interface (goliath HD) IF my computer could handle it..
the problem is i'd need another ten grand to get a good enough mac (in australian dollars) to handle the low latencies and lots of inputs. I read that even mac pro's stutter at the 32, that 64 is the only usable, and 128 better. Cue high latency, 128 is unacceptable.

I reckon one would need a top end kaby lake windows machine to pull it off, which is also a lot cheaper than a mac but with windows you can disable all intel power saving. I have already done the tests, windows gets a bit less than double the plugin count of my mac on a similar machine (windows 7).

I also tested studio one on my 2.3 ghs ivy bridge windows laptop, quad core, 3 years old, just 8gb ram (was only 600 bucks), and it got 2.3x the amount of plugins at 64 buffer that my 2.8ghz skylake retina macbook pro quad got (3,700 bucks!)
The difference is HUGE.

Pro tools performs ok on mac only because of the clever buffering, like Logic. Things like ableton and studio one run at chosen buffer size permanently, therefore windows slaughters the mac performance cause of all the speedstep that can be disabled, i.e you can run your 6 cores or whatever, permanently at their proper clock speed without noise (a good noctua fan), heat, or core speed throttling. I spent many years in my spare time investigating this and came up with massive reports which were corroborated by a hi tech performance benchmark tester at gearslutz. I was right.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

What plugs are you using that will have 175 samples of latency?

Latency needs to be managed regardless of what kind of system you're using, but an HDX rig is capable of very large high-sample rate sessions with minimal throughput latencies without having to crank buffers down to unstable levels, as long as you manage what kind of plugs you're using where. A native rig is capable of very low latencies as long as buffers can be kept very low. This topic has been discussed ad infinitum here, but maybe these posts might help you?

http://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=2368588&postcount=6

http://duc.avid.com/showpost.php?p=2420019&postcount=55

a 3rd party dsp verb, compressor and EQ seems to be able to hit that latency quite readily from the AAX DSP plugin latencies i have read. I am not going to spend 15 grand on a HDX and multiple analog interfaces to track through d-verb. (LOL).

[propower]

FWIW - I have given up on tracking through DAW plugins at this time (ProTools too). I set the buffer out at 256 or 512 (96kHz) and track with the Antelope built in FX and mixer. Latency is <0.5ms for live instruments and Vocals and sounds amazing. I usually only track a few things at a time so this is workable - for bands and large tracking - HDX would "sadly" be my choice (I sold my HDX system 6 months ago). For those adept at the UA system it is another worthy option.

For folks who are not so picky about RTL and can live with 5ms latency - HDN (or logic or S1 etc) and a good TB interface will do quite nicely.

[propower]

Originally Posted by TNM

a 3rd party dsp verb, compressor and EQ seems to be able to hit that latency quite readily from the AAX DSP plugin latencies i have read. I am not going to spend 15 grand on a HDX and multiple analog interfaces to track through d-verb. (LOL).

Be careful - only the plugins on a direct line to the output will impact RTL. A reverb send to an AUX track with Reverb on it will not - even a Native Reverb. You will have an extra delay in the Reverb path but that is usually not a problem. One of the lesser known nice features in HDX.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by Extreme Mixing

Seems like you know everything already anyway...

But this is a time when you really need to talk to a knowledgeable sales rep, or get to know someone at Avid. I can assure you that an HDX System with Avid converters is superior to an Apollo interface. It's expensive, but not without reason. I've never had anyone complain about latency on an HDX System unless you have high latency plugs on the stereo bus.

well i must be dumb cause i can't find a way to contact avid without a support plan.

I must admit, this is all because of the 32 limit. If it wasn't there, i would buy the HD software *today*, and get the extra editing features and trim automation (a lifesaver) and just add to my apollo i/o.

Avid are very clever in that regard.

Using the apollo console to set up your outboard mix is not painful at all. You even get a little plugin you throw anywhere in your PT project, and it loads all the console settings, plugins, the works, when you load your PT project.

Thanks everyone for all the helpful replies.

One last question...

just say i were to go for HDN or HDX.. to monitor my 64 channels outboard live through PT, do i need to record enable each track?

[arche3]

you can put tracks into input and hear realtime. in record and stop it monitors input. in play record mode monitors audio on track until punch in then it monitors input obviously.

just get a hdx system with hdio boxes for 64 inputs and outputs for interfacing to analog console. and or outboard. every other solution is just too much effort. save the headache and get on with it.