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  #11  
Old 03-10-2007, 01:42 AM
Lord Rockmountain Lord Rockmountain is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

Thanx for the suggestions...
But I have to say, because everything else with the "audio" part of the software appears to be working, I am really apprehensive about re-installing my software. Contrary to to what PT Lover says it takes quite a while to get back to where you left off when you do that. Plus, if any of my updates from the LE 7.1 install CD's sent with my 002r were actually corrupted, I believe other things would not be working right. But, this seems not to be the case. I would only consider doing that if the software was non-functional and preventing me from using it at all, or a dreaded crash forced me to.

I also want to say that I have read quite a few threads from as far back as last year, of users that have experienced the same issue. So, I don't believe it to be an isolated problem... contrary to what you have said.

*** I have an update to report *** as well. I was able to isolate the problem to any "hardware" related synth/keyboard that I tried. So, it eliminated my controller from the equation. I tried the 1/4 note (quantized) test, played back through an instance of Xpand on an instrument track... and the timing of the audio print to midi was perfect! So, this leads me to believe that the issue is not with the "internal" softsynths/instruments... but with the actual midi data being sent "from" the hardware interface (002r).

Could this possibly be a firmware issue? My firmware was updated by the software when I first installed v 7.1.. Is it a processor issue? I am using 4 right now. (MP 2.66/LE 7.3.1) Maybe the problem only exists on the new Mac Intel machines and not the Power PC. I guess it's possible that something else could be interfering with the midi timing... but what?? I have a very basic midi setup... a controller that I use for some sounds and internal software synths/instruments. Nothing that could be causing a loop. It's simple... midi in (from keyboard) to midi out (to keyboard).

I've tried all the suggested "fixes" but the problem still exists. THE MIDI TRIGGERS INCONSISTENLY. It is visible when you record the output of an external device. *** You must ZOOM IN on the audio and view it against the midi and the grid to see the problem. It's as much as a 64th note off and it's never consistent.

The problem is new to LE 7.x.. It is real... And I am not on drugs. I've upgraded from a 001/LE 5.1 on a G4/400 right thru to a MacPro/002r/LE 7.3.1 and this is the first time I've seen midi timing inaccuracies like these.. What a drag.

Thank you for any insight you can bring to this rather scary problem.
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  #12  
Old 03-13-2007, 08:41 AM
Aquillar Aquillar is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

The problem that I'm having is much much more than a 64th note off. Some bars will play without any midi at all, and then it will all play at once in an attempt to "catch up." Some notes will hold longer than they should, some won't release at all, it's a major pain in the ass.
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  #13  
Old 03-21-2007, 01:15 PM
Lord Rockmountain Lord Rockmountain is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

WoW!
Sound like a big problem. Any one else had any similar problems as described in the earlier threads? I don't seem to have the problem with any "internal" software synths it's only the sync issues with external midi devices and "printing back" the audio tracks. They don't line up with the MIDI.

Thanx
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  #14  
Old 03-21-2007, 02:13 PM
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DigiTechSupt DigiTechSupt is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

When you say it's up to 1/64th note off - at what tempo? How many notes are you playing simultaneously?

What happens if you route the output of your MIDI track back to the MIDI input on the 002 and record it to a new track - do you see the same inconsistency?

What I'm thinking may be a factor here - MIDI is a serial protocol, meaning only 1 event can be passed down the cable at a time. If you have a lot of data being sent, you can see wide swings in it's accuracy. This has been 'the way it is' since MIDI began. I'm not saying that's absolutely the case here - the question and test I'm asking about above will give us more info, but I do often see that people expect MIDI to be sample accurate or nearly so with hardware synths and that's not something that's possible.

Let me know about the above and we'll take it from there...
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  #15  
Old 03-21-2007, 07:44 PM
Aquillar Aquillar is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

I'm trying to play quarter notes at a tempo of 120 bpm....a click track. I've made my own very very very simple midi tracks and they do not play properly either.

Now, here’s another interesting discovery:

I installed Pro Tools on another system (very dirty, unformatted for about 3 years) which is just an AMD Athlon 2200+, 1 GB pc2700 ddr333 ram, 200 GB 7200 rpm 8 MB cache IDE hard drive, Windows XP pro SP2. EVERYTHING WORKS PERFECTLY. This is extremely depressing; this computer can only handle the simplest of sessions, while my Dell can only handle the ones without simplicity (any midi).

Wow.
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  #16  
Old 03-21-2007, 08:46 PM
Lord Rockmountain Lord Rockmountain is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

Thanx for the test idea I'll try that.

But, here's the thing. If you would have read the earlier posts you would have seen that it was a "simple" click track. One MIDI track one Audio track at 120 bpm... NOTHING ELSE! Straight quarter note (quantized to 1/4). No other MIDI interface involved, just MIDI out of the 002r to the keyboard and back to MIDI in. This is so basic I can't believe this is even a problem... but it's a HUGE problem!!! I realize MIDI is not sample accurate, I'm not try to get sample accuracy. I'm just trying to get BEAT accurate. This test I performed does not involve a huge MIDI setup. It's simple. The "click" audio (when printed back and aligned to the grid) is not in time with the MIDI track!! It's just a freakin' cowbell used as a test reference to see if my suspicion about the MIDI timing was correct. The "click track" function within Protools is fine. But........ Just try and trigger a "quarter note click at 120 bpm (could be any tempo) via MIDI to an "external" keyboard, say......... a cowbell, record the the output of the keyboard back to an audio track. Now ZOOM IN, so you can see the very front of the audio, as it is in relation to the MIDI track..... Notice any discrepency??? It "should" be spot on, (within 10 to 20 samples lets' say) with the MIDI.

I get almost as much as a 64th of a note off!! It will be early for a beat or two then late then early.... It's never consistent. If the timing were at least accurate to the closest BEAT, it should still be consistent!! Wouldn't you agree? Like I said before, I can deal with something being consistently early or late..... but, inconsistency just BLOWS real hard!! Imagine a session with multiple external and internal midi devices playing things at different times....!!! What a freakin' mess! It's got nothing to do with Global Offset or anything like that... This is an internal timing issue via the 002r interface that gets sent to any external device.

I tried this test with 2 different keyboards and BOTH showed the same behavior with just this simple test. I challenge anyone to try this that has a MacPro 2.66/10.4.8 system running 7.3.1 LE and an 002r interface to see if their MIDI and Audio tracks line up correctly.

REMEMBER!! I'm talking about "consistency" here, not sample "accuracy". Whether it's early or late is not the issue. It's whether it's consistent.

I'm interested in everyones feedback on this issue. Because, if I'm the only one having this problem....
I'll go take a flyin' #!@**$?!!

Cheers!
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  #17  
Old 03-22-2007, 09:32 AM
WorkingEngineer WorkingEngineer is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

Just wanted to chime in here as well. We update at PTHD rig to 7.3 last week

I believe its a Duel 2.3 Mac with 2 gig ram
2 - 96io feeding Apogee Rosatta interfaces
Motu MTP AV for the midi interface

The MTP is feedin a whole arrey of Midi gear including

MPC 4000
Tritin Rack
Protius
JV5080
JD 800
there more ...

The MPC is getting fed Beatclock via the MTP on port 1. Often we would start makeing a track in the MPC. Lets say the tracks drums begin as a 4 bar loop. Then would decide to add some synths or begin working in PT as well. We would set a 4 bar loop in PT and put the MPC in sync to beat clock mode and they would loop perfictly in sync. You had to start the first playback with a 64th note of preroll so everything would catch up but it looped around perfictly everytime.

Now in 7.3 even just with the click playing from the MPC and the click plug in PT the loop around is INCONSISTATLY off. By as much as a 1/16 note at 120bpm. Then it will catch back up and the be off again. Every looparound is different, untill it gets way off and then just stays off.

Sounds like a similar problem right? This all worked great under 7.1. We skipped from 7.1 to 7.3.

Matt
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  #18  
Old 03-22-2007, 10:09 AM
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

Lord Rockmountain -

I'm going to try some more extensive testing early next week on this. I wasn't able to reproduce it previously, but I only tested on 1 system.

It definitely sounds wrong, but I can't say specifically what's happening here - if it was this bad for everyone, you'd think we'd have an awful lot of complaints.

Once I have a little more conclusive info, I'll get back to you. I'm also passing this info to a couple other people who may be able to do some testing and/or shed some light on what may be happening.
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  #19  
Old 03-22-2007, 03:35 PM
Lord Rockmountain Lord Rockmountain is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

Matt,
Thanx for the feedback. Yeah, sounds like it's related. I don't remember 7.1 being like this and definately not 6.x!! I work with HD setups in the studios I work at and I don't recall having such issues with the MIDi clock or timing of "external" devices. Granted Logic Pro is a better MIDI sequencing program but, I still think Protools is better/easier at audio manipulation.

Thanx for the info. Let's hope DIGI can get a handle on it. I think the issue is "Mac/Intel" related, and this is also the reason that more people have not noticed the issue. But, the issue is real. I've been doing this too long to not notice things like this.

Cheers
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  #20  
Old 03-22-2007, 04:09 PM
Lord Rockmountain Lord Rockmountain is offline
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Default Re: MIDI Timing in LE 7.3.1 is BUGGNUTZ!!

Thanx DIGI,
I really believe this is a real problem and only PT 7.3/MacPro/Intel related. Like Matt stated before, I too upgraded straight from 7.1 to 7.3, bypassing 7.2.

To clarify my basic setup..

MacPro 2.66
PT 7.3.1 LE
002r
Yamaha O2R (via ADAT lightpipe) for monitoring Sample rate is 48k.
MIDI I/O is strickly the 002r with one keyboard as a controller.


** The problem is with "externally" triggered MIDI devices from PT. The "internal" PT click is fine, as well as any softsynths (ie; Hybrid, Xpand, Reason, etc..)

Thanx for looking into this. However, I'm still interested to hear from others that have experienced similar timing issues. So, please everyone take the time and try the (previously mentioned) simple test with your rig and see if you get the same result as posted earlier in this thread. Then let us know.

*** Also, please leave a brief list of the setup you are using, so the tech guys can narrow this down.

Cheers
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