ROI on protools LE v competition

[cdxpat]

Given that i probably will never be an HD user and i've never needed to move anything in between Protools systems i'm reviewing my going forward strategy regarding DAW's.

I've been a casual and not always happy user of LE for 3 years.
I've been looking at upgrading to PT with 48 tracks but at the same time i was researching that i pulled back a review which compared PT unfavourably against Cubase 3 and Sonar 5. Frankly the 48 track upgrade pricing seems like an insult when i started to look at what the competition offer.

I take a look at the specs for the new Sonar 6 Producer and Cubase 4 and they seem on paper at least to blow PT LE out of the water. Unlimited track count, surround sound included MP3 options pitch shift music notation etc etc. Frankly there seems a lot more value .

Dont get me wrong i rarely need more than 32 tracks and the -002 mixer is more than enough for my requirements. 7.1 seems a stable release and on my current PC finally performs well. I also have some investment in learning protools and frankly the hassle of switching. And there is the shallow 'cool' value of being a pro-tools user.

But... for the price of an additional 16 tracks and perhaps one plugin i can get significantly more functionality today by switching platforms. Once switched i will have access to VST lower cost (and free) plugins and almost certainly a more active upgrade path. My track count is only limited by computing power and it looks like we are just about to make another great leap forward with the new dual and quad processors.

I already have a simple mixer the -002 will do as an audio interface until i can afford something as good but smaller.

Right now i'm leaning towards investing a grand in Cubase 4 and some accessories which will be this years budget for music toys gone.

I'm sure i'll get some flames on this but would be interested in other opinions on the relative value of sticking with protools LE against making the switch.

One of my value concerns is that the competition seem to want to beat each other with their new DAW products which drives inovation. Digi seem to want to protect the value of the cash cow high end HD stuff by not ever putting too much into the LE version.

[shanabit]

Why not just get Cubase to add to your setup?
I have both and I think its great to have both.
I have file compatiblity with Protools users and
i can do anything I want in SX3, Cubase 4 Ill have soon!!

[JMS40]

What he said...

[Captain_Pants]

I cant argue with the points above, you bring good points, and the competition certainly is worthy of being called such. Digidesign does make top notch products, and one thing that I consistently am pleased with is the hardware/software integration. When you buy a system, you really do get the whole package.

In a case like yours, you are comparing a hardware manufacture with a software manufacture. There are obvious different priorities with the 2 companies.

Thats just my take on it.

[cdxpat]

Fair comments - i think the issue with pro-tools is it does come from a hardware manufacturer.
So while i have stopped upgrading soundforge for instance because the version i have does enough for my needs (converting wav files from protools to mp3). I can still use it on a dual core machine with the latest version of XP. 6.x protools use would have stopped once i got that machine because Digi has a such tight tie in to the platform version AND os version.

This year i've spent a couple of hundred dollars to enable Protools VST support (Fxpansion - unsupported by Digi) and get upgraded to 7.1 which (unofficially) at least supports dual core. Probably for official Dual Core support there will be a paid upgrade. Functionally i got from those upgrades what i would have already had in competing platforms - they were catch up.

Say the middle of next year i will be going to Vista that will be another paid upgrade and i will lose the use of many of my legacy utilities. So a more complete core platform will keep the upgrade costs down.

So for me - i own PC software. The hardware - its a firewire mixer and audio interface. That i think applies to many people who own anything less than the HD. The software has to be justified on its own merits and its coming up short right now. Yes Digi are very clear on what is supported but to my mind in the "pro-consumer" space they are pretty slow on supporting what should be supported. There are quite a lot of people on this forum running unsupported hardware because they cant wait for Digi or they need the upgraded machine for other purposes as well. There should be a message from that.

[mrtunes]

cdxpat- you a post or music guy? one thing i know about pro tools vs. cubase in post production is that pro tools scrubs video when you drag regions around. cubase doesnt and you'd need nuendo to do it. i've also heard and seen the digitranslator works a little better with the omf format than the cubase omf import/export. i know of one big studio running neundo that has to use a 3rd party omf translator in order to have the most reliable conversions. for music though, yeah cubase smokes pro tools' butt! (that is if internal bussing isn't a big deal to you hehe)

[gerax]

I understand your points, as they were exactly the same I was complaining about; but the sofware/hardware manufacturer thing doesn't have to be underestimated; when you add the cost of a compatible 18 I/O interface to your non-Digidesign software of choice (say Cubase SX4) you have far more than the price of a 002/LE system (and the only one I can think of in terms of direct comparisions to Digidesign is MOTU); yes, it's true that the A solution wouldn't have all those restrictions of the Digidesign combo, but hey, let's face it: Digidesign still makes the most of its income from HD setups; they have a mid priced line (LE) and the consumer line (M-Powered) because they couldn't not to have a feet in the lower end market; I say the added packages make up for a pretty powerful system once expanded, I myself got the Music Production Toolkit, and I'm able to mix extensive sessions on my dual core; if you need more than 48 stereo voices (I've recentely mixed a 52 tracks song) then you're ready for and HD setup, the system is scalable, from M-Powered to HD, it depends on your requirements; I find that being able to switch my sessions with HD equipped studios, and being compatible with a standard is a feature worth the price of admission alone, if you're in the pro market and need to be able to accept work from outside your studio. If your work starts and ends within the confines of your studio then you pretty much can use whatever you want, and so the idea to add Cubase SX4 to your current setup seems the most logical. I myself am a Pro Tools guy, and I've tried almost every other software out there, but I haven't been able to get the speed and ease of use I have reached on Pro Tools, so to me that's what makes or breaks the deal.

Hope thsi helps

L.G.

[JFreak]

I take a look at the specs for the new Sonar 6 Producer and Cubase 4 and they seem on paper at least to blow PT LE out of the water. Unlimited track count, surround sound included MP3 options pitch shift music notation etc etc. Frankly there seems a lot more value.

You have to add several hours of frustration when you use those products (Sonar/Cubase) after you've got yourself familiar with ProTools. IMO, it is a pain in the arse to use anything else, and that frustration and lost time is hugely bigger nuisance than the extra cost of a Music Production Toolkit. I value my time, but you don't have to. Just make sure you have thought about that, too.

I rarely need more than 32 tracks and the -002 mixer is more than enough for my requirements. 7.1 seems a stable release and on my current PC finally performs well.

So, how much is the extra value of unlimited tracks when you rarely need more than 32? Is it so much more than the cost of a Music Production Toolkit? Have you thought that you could get more tracks by freezing some of your stuff, a drum kit for example?

I also have some investment in learning protools and frankly the hassle of switching. And there is the shallow 'cool' value of being a pro-tools user.

Again, what I first said, knowing how to efficiently use the software is priceless. You know ProTools, so beginning to use something else "costs" you significantly. Your time at least, if not your money.

But... for the price of an additional 16 tracks and perhaps one plugin i can get significantly more functionality today by switching platforms.

First of all, the track count rises from 16 stereo tracks to 48 stereo tracks, or (in theory) from 32 mono tracks to 96 mono tracks. That is a HUGE difference, and track-count-wise looks like LE users can now challenge HD1. Yes, it is a workaround to get those 96 tracks, but it is still possible if you know how to use busses. But as you said, you rarely use more than 32 tracks, you should probably never need this workaround as that 48 tracks might be enough for you for as long as you mix. But you should never say never.

Once switched i will have access to VST lower cost (and free) plugins and almost certainly a more active upgrade path. My track count is only limited by computing power and it looks like we are just about to make another great leap forward with the new dual and quad processors.

This sounds like repeating myself, but... What's so great about unlimited track count, when you rarely use more than 32 tracks? And what's so great about frequent updates, as you should be doing mixing and not upgrading? Has your ProTools been broken in such a way that you have been begging Digidesign for update for very long time? In my book, ProTools gets updated too often, so I'm not quite following you on this one.

And VST plugins... please...

Right now i'm leaning towards investing a grand in Cubase 4 and some accessories which will be this years budget for music toys gone.

You're first talking about free VST plugins, "whining" about the cost of a Music Production Toolkit, and then you'd be willing to spend a grand for "nothing". This is really something I cannot understand. Why wouldn't you just buy the Music Production Toolkit and one really PRO plugin/bundle? That'd add significant value to your rig. For example, the Waves Renaissance MAXX bundle costs few hundred and it offers a nice reverb, a very nice compressor, a decent eq, and few other tools. That and the MPT will in my opinion give you a whole lot more than Cubase.

One of my value concerns is that the competition seem to want to beat each other with their new DAW products which drives innovation. Digi seem to want to protect the value of the cash cow high end HD stuff by not ever putting too much into the LE version.

This is one relevant way of seeing the situation; however, if can also be seen like Digidesign innovates on the HD platform and then puts a selection of the best pieces into the LE version, giving you tried and tested tools that are powerful, of high quality, and easy to use. I bet you don't know "everything" LE has to offer, and until you do, it is rather pointless to ask for more.

Only when you have something to do that you just cannot do, then, you have a right to whine. Surround mixing would be one of those valid topics, but, in my opinion one should first master stereo mixing and only then go to surround -- and then one should afford to get the HD rig anyway.

It's all about learning curve; once you've learnt everything there is, you might want some more. Before that, isn't it pointless to even think about how much more there coule be to learn?

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OK, there were some strong opinions about the subject. Point being, stick with the tool you know (ProTools) as the switch is really rather pointless. What is it that you would really gain?