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  #261  
Old 07-13-2002, 10:58 AM
rtcstudio rtcstudio is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

Henchman,

I think the thing that is hard to understand is not working 10 hour days, 'cause I can definitely relate to that and worse, but more that over the course of FOUR MONTHS, with at least two guys including Dave Carlock willing to do ALL the leg work for him getting the test set up so that all he had to do is come by, spend MAYBE two hours checking the methodology of the test, and then transfering the program material, with all of this he could not get it done.

It's not important to him. He may be more famous than me, but he ain't busier, that's for sure, and I could have found two hours in the last THIRD OF A YEAR to do anything that was important to me.
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  #262  
Old 07-13-2002, 02:40 PM
loudist loudist is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

two hours in the last THIRD OF A YEAR to do anything that was important to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The operative words here are 'was important to me'.
I wouldn't be so eager to take time out to redo a test with all the naysaying and jabbing going on, and MM has said something along those lines. Also it wasn't as important to him as it was to the producer who hired him to do the test in the first place.
Dave Carlock was there at the first test and heard what was reported. So there was a representitive of a PT user there, contrary to assumptions. Dave knows how the test was done and methodology used, and respected the methods used, that is probably why he is not jumping on the slam train with the others. If there is anyone who has a weightier opinion here, it is Dave. He has the most time and energy invested in this little project, and has chosen to take a higher road here instead of whinging.
Hats off to you Dave for being adult about this thing from the beginning to the end, something a few of us could learn to do.

I have asked questions about some connectivity theories to the group as a whole to try and understand what could have happened electrically and recieved ZERO responses... save Lynn Fulston who said he wasn't sure so he woudn't say. (yea Lynn). The idea of brainstorming in this group doesn't seem to have much validity. The idea of criticizing the posts, posters, whom, what, where, affiliations, validities, justifications ect. seem to most prevelent activity on these threads, and it is a mean spirited commentary at that. It borders on intolerance and bigotry.
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  #263  
Old 07-13-2002, 03:14 PM
Robotnik Robotnik is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

Loudist,

Are you Mixerman's mom?
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  #264  
Old 07-13-2002, 04:28 PM
michael c michael c is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

Loudist, I'm still not sure what answer you want. You sent Bombactory to a certain thread where 100s posted their ideas of what could have gone wrong. Isn't that enough conjecture? How can anyone know what went wrong unless they were there at the time and THEN tried to troubleshoot it. You give 'profs' to Lynn F for saying "I don't know why", well NO ONE KNOWS. Again, no slam to anyone, but people make mistakes. Maybe this is what happened to MM. At this point, who cares? NO ONE else has had this problem.

I appreciate you trying to get everyone to take the 'highroad', uh except MM of course. What about his ungrounded cartoon rants? Also, I think it is not cool for the community of engineers and musicians to join in these cartoon rants and slam each other, but I have to say you dish it out as much as anyone.

BTW, I didn't know that Dave Carlock was at the original session. Uh, so David, what DID go wrong and why didn't you guys try new cabling at the time? Or maybe you did. I know that is something most folks would have checked.
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  #265  
Old 07-13-2002, 06:57 PM
The Eggman The Eggman is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

Quote:
Originally posted by loudist:
The idea of brainstorming in this group doesn't seem to have much validity.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Loudist, come one...we had almost 900 posts over 3 threads of brainstorming on this topic. Of course, many of us were (and still are) interested in determining the source of MM's problems with the HD on that particular day and in that particular room. But you can only "brainstorm" so long...eventually you're going to have to set the test up again and look for repeatability.

Quote:
Originally posted by loudist:
he idea of criticizing the posts, posters, whom, what, where, affiliations, validities, justifications ect. seem to most prevelent activity on these threads, and it is a mean spirited commentary at that. It borders on intolerance and bigotry.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't agree with you more here. MM's attacks on Digi and PT users in general were totally mean spirited, as well as being unprofessional and irresponsible, given that his claims have gone completely unsubstantiated. And yes, his racial slur nickname for PT certainly indicates intolerance and bigotry. You're right on the money there, Loudist. I'm glad we agree there.
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  #266  
Old 07-13-2002, 07:18 PM
Lynn Fuston Lynn Fuston is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

Quote:
Originally posted by loudist:
I have asked questions about some connectivity theories to the group as a whole to try and understand what could have happened electrically and recieved ZERO responses... save Lynn Fulston who said he wasn't sure so he woudn't say. (yea Lynn). The idea of brainstorming in this group doesn't seem to have much validity.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think if people had more ideas about what went wrong, they would eagerly offer them. In truth, there is just no way of knowing. You can always go back to one of my all time favorites for when things are not working (this works really well with computers) "Sunspots."

The whole world of digital contains so much voodoo even now that we've been working with it for 20 years. We're discovering new things about it every day. Or maybe it's just me. No, it's not just me.

I've been talking with digital designers a lot during the setup for the ADC CD and there are issues when dealing with digital that people are just now beginning to identify. People like Hutch of Manley Labs, Dave Hill of Cranesong, BJ at Metric Halo. There are so many variables.

Even now as I'm doing the editing on the samples for the ADC CD (113 cuts, thank you very much), I'm scratching my head over things that we heard during testing that I'm not hearing now. Was it the clock source, since we auditioned 3 out of the 4 samples with internal clocks? Was it jitter? Was it the resolution or the brand of the DAC? (The dCS 954 by the way.) Was it the amplifier or the room? I'm using the same speakers, with the same cabling, with the same 24-bit source files, as much the same as I can. And yet, I'm making different conclusions than I did when we first listened based on a different listening chain. What will you hear when you listen on a CD player with its DAC? It's anybody's guess.

On the one hand, it's baffling and frustrating. On the other hand, it's no different than the results most people noticed when listening to the Mic CD and the Pre CD. They liked one mic or preamp best in the studio, one in the car, one at home. It's a moving target.

So you won't find me criticizing anyone's testing methodology or shooting down "what they say they heard." I've done that enough times myself and am still searching for answers.

True, we may never know what happened in that one instance. We just have to go on and do the best we can with the tools we are given, constantly striving for better and more realistic audio quality. That's the real goal. Use the tools that work best for you and realize that those tools may NOT work best for others. Ultimately, we all make our own choices and we live and make our fortunes (or not!) based on the choices we make.

To each his own.
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  #267  
Old 07-13-2002, 07:51 PM
Lee Blaske Lee Blaske is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

The Eggman wrote:

Quote:
I couldn't agree with you more here. MM's attacks on Digi and PT users in general were totally mean spirited, as well as being unprofessional and irresponsible, given that his claims have gone completely unsubstantiated. And yes, his racial slur nickname for PT certainly indicates intolerance and bigotry. You're right on the money there, Loudist. I'm glad we agree there.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't agree more with that.

BTW, if we were to research this thread historically, my speculation is that MM lost interest in the test right around the time that Lynn announced the exhaustive and meticulous evaluation project he was putting together.

Right about that time, MM posted this:

Quote:
MIX cont.."Look, if you like Tools, use it. I don't give a **** . If you want to spend the money to replace all the plug-ins that you already bought (you are buying them aren't you?), and if you want to replace your convertors that you've been vehemently defending for years, and if you want to keep the same old crappy mix buss, be my guest. All that I have done is to provide information. If you think my information is flawed, then buy it. I D O N ' T C A R E! It doesn't matter to me. Do you understand that? I'll repeat it. I don't care."
MIX cont... (will he ever shut up?!!!!!!) "Back to the anonimity issue. Tell me, are my detractors frustrated that you cannot slag the actual person, but rather an alias? Does that bother you?"
Well, does it?

I've got nothing to sell you, boys and girls.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM or Loudist can correct me if I'm wrong, but I took the "I've got nothing to sell you, boys and girls" comment (given the context of the other threads around it) to be a slam on Lynn Fuston because of the fact that selling the various equipment evaluation CDs he's put together is a side line business for him (whereas Mixerman largely provides his advice gratis).

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read that post from MM.

Lee Blaske
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  #268  
Old 07-13-2002, 08:23 PM
The Eggman The Eggman is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
[QB]Mixerman wrote:

Quote:
"Look, if you like Tools, use it. I don't give a **** . If you want to spend the money to replace all the plug-ins that you already bought (you are buying them aren't you?), and if you want to replace your convertors that you've been vehemently defending for years, and if you want to keep the same old crappy mix buss, be my guest. I D O N ' T C A R E! It doesn't matter to me. Do you understand that? I'll repeat it. I don't care."

I've got nothing to sell you, boys and girls.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lee, those are exactly the type of mean-spirited and intolerant comments that Loudist and I are so opposed to. Loudist, you and I have Lee to thank for providing a reasonable example. I'm with you, Loudist, comments like these are not appropriate for this board. In this regard, it's for the better that MM has taken his intolerance elsewhere.
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  #269  
Old 07-13-2002, 08:23 PM
loudist loudist is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

Quote:
And yes, his racial slur nickname for PT certainly indicates intolerance and bigotry. You're right on the money there, Loudist. I'm glad we agree there.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats a stretch in many ways, eggman.

Quote:
but I have to say you dish it out as much as anyone.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True enough, that is why I said:
"Hats off to you Dave for being adult about this thing from the beginning to the end, something a few of us could learn to do." Us being inclusive.

As always Lynn, a pleasure to read your posts. I know there were a lot of ideas tossed around, but looking at the methods used in the original test by MM the problem did not follow the cableing, that was what the radar was for. I asked very specific questions about very high frequency oscillations or bias, or a hot rodded studer termination or lack thereof, all hypothetical but a possibility, I was hopeing for someone who understands the physics and consequences of electrical connectivity much better than I.

Yea Lynn, the moving target has been with us way before digital... heheh.
Quote:
"I've got nothing to sell you, boys and girls" comment (given the context of the other threads around it) to be a slam on Lynn Fuston
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lee, I can't answer for MM, but my take on this was not a slam on Lynn, but MM making a point that he has nothing to gain or lose by this.
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  #270  
Old 07-13-2002, 08:27 PM
loudist loudist is offline
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Default Re: 2" Transfer into 192--the original timeless classic. Accept no imitations...

eggman, please do me the favor of not including me as a partner in your unreasonable and childish distortions, spins, and general pot stirring...

Thanks
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