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  #51  
Old 10-06-2002, 03:25 PM
Last Last is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Quote:
Originally posted by synthguy99:
I do think if I was going to invite an engineer to work with me on an album that Peter would be the wrong choice, since he seems to come from a contemporary pop perspective, tho his input would certainly be constructive.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Synthguy!

I enjoyed reading your thoughts and I agree with you wholeheartedly on most of your observations.

Anything that is largely artistic, and thus entirely subjective, is very hard to judge in the form of a competition.But we did it anyway. I think it is human nature to be competitive, and since the idea was suggested frequently on the DUC, Roy and I decided to run with it.

I would like to take this opportunity to parhaps explain some of the questions raised here over the last 24 hours, by explaining our approach to this shootout a bit better.

The reason we decided to judge the shootout seperately was because of our different backgrounds and points of entry. While we are both professionals in similar fields, Roy has a level of theoretical music education that I dont have. I did go to college, but mainly succeeded in losing my virginity while I was there, and not much else. The only thing I know about middle C is that it isnt realy in the middle, and that in Japan it is worth more cycles.

My input came largely from a entertainment industry background , and we both met in the middle somewhere. That is why Roy's scores differ so from mine. Because we approached the material from different angles, both being important and valid.

I would also like to, following the quote of your's above, tell you a bit more about myself. I do not realy operate from a contemporary pop perspective. My roots and background is actually Alternative Rock, Metal and PunkRock.
But as a professional full time engineer and sometimes producer, I cannot afford to carry a label with me. The truth is that I appreciate any quality music, and my CD collection looks like the work of a schitzophrenic. I have therefore found myself on projects ranging from choirs, orchestras and TV sound effects, to worldmusic, house, reggae, kwaito, rap and rock, to pop, country, jazz and hard rock. I have done backings for strippers and sountracks for naughty movies while at the same time recording sermons and churchorgans. But on the other hand I have also had an exiting career as a Sound Studio designer and builder, which complemented some of my weirder hobbies such as accoustic treatment of spaces and the layout, wiring up of and writing of operating manuals for large studios. In between that I found myself working as the manager of the A&R department of a SA Indie Label, and also managing their studios for a bit. That put me in the wonderfull position of employing the same people who flunked me out of college years ago [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
I now drive my own home studio (which is why I am here at the DUC) but I am still, after 2 years on permanent call for some of the TDM studios I have built.I also find myself frequently standing behing consoles in other studios with all faces staring at me in misguided anticipation while at least one suit would nervously be staring at the clock.I try to avoid these situations but it seems that the more people I turn down the more people call back. Other than that I have retired from design and construction, retired from the business end of the labels, am in semi-retirement from production and engineering, and am concentrating more or less full time on my family, friends, and my publishing label, which is branching out into the big bad world, however I cant say any more about that right now.

But in any case, the one thing that has carried me this far is the fact that I dont belong to any genre or click, and that I can understand and appreciate music from almost every corner of the world. So I dont reeeaaallly agree that I am a contemporary popster. I do agree that I would be the wrong choice for working on an album with you though [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Not because of my perspective, but rather because of my pricetag [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
(Just a joke!)

So thank you to all who have added their comments here. I am enjoying reading them immensly, and if we didnt want them, we wouldnt have posted the result here, would we?

Anyway, goodnight and peace to you all!

Peter
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  #52  
Old 10-06-2002, 03:58 PM
Roy Howell Roy Howell is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

"Roy,
I'm looking forward to hearing your suggestions. And I appreciate you taking your time to help..."

Brad,

OK, say you and I are sitting together, just checking out the mix as objectively as we can... and really, we virtually are. Here's what I would suggest, as we're listening...

1. Yes, given more time, we should take care of the guitar 'glitch' you mentioned, and redo that part. The acoustic guitar sound is excellent, in my opinion.

2.I think your vocal mix is great, both verb and level wise.

3. Very important, though seemingly trivial... is, I would suggest we lose the kick in the first verse. It does not live up to the quality of neither the vocal nor the guitar, and they will be fine all alone. If anything is added, percussion or otherwise, it needs to 'complement' the rest, not take away.

4. While we're on the kick, I would also use another kick, both deeper and less 'clicky', yet not muddy. I think it would deepen the feel of the choruses, where it is most important.

5. I would suggest we at least use another cymbal, than the obvious one I'm hearing. It sounds like a 'party' cymbal, and out of place in this production. It's too tinty and short, I think. Something probably deeper and longer, and warmed up with compression would, I think, be in better keeping with the quality of your production.
Also, I would not use any cymbal in the second verse. Listen and see if you agree.

6.I would suggest we bring up the bass in the first chorus a touch, which it sounds like you did in verse two. Just how much, if at all, would be up to you.

7.At the end of each verse, just before each chorus, there's a short build. I think it needs to build stronger, to take advantage of the dynamics opportunity. Pulling up the toms, adding a one-job instrument..... something to kick it up there.

8.Snare up a touch in choruses, possibly.

But Brad, this is all from the perspective that we already have a diamond of a song here. Your guitar sounds are great, and played with the passion the song deserves. I love where you decided to bring in the electric guitar. As I said, to me, your vocal levels and verb level are great. No need to water down the 'honesty' of the vocal sound with delays, in my opinion.

I must say that the major/minor thing in the verses is very apparent to my ears. Yet, the song is so full of feeling, an untrained ear will possibly not even notice. So, obviously a great job, feel-wise. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

That's about the best I can do without you and I actually mixing together. By the way, I would love to write with you, and I truly hope this contest will encourage collaboration amongst DUC members. I have already had the honor of writing or playing with at least 5 other members.

Please take these suggestions as they're meant, only my best from me to you. Great song.

Thanks, Roy
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  #53  
Old 10-06-2002, 04:54 PM
Captain_Pants Captain_Pants is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Quote:
Captain, I'm not a huge techno fan, but those are some mighty big pants. Amazing stuff.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks a bunch. Im glad it stuck out, I was shooting for that. Hehe. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
=-CP.
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  #54  
Old 10-06-2002, 07:50 PM
Greg M Greg M is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

As the current owner of last place (by a wide margin I might add), I feel that I have an obligation, no a duty, to make some comments. I would like to thank Peter and Roy for the time they spent critiquing our songs. The idea of the shootout was to have fun and learn something in the process. Looks to me like critiquing the songs might have been more work than fun for Peter and Roy. Again thanks for your time.

As for my entry. Overall, the score was accurate. No two ways about it, the drums were bad. I would have probably scored better if I had bounced a click track and left this drum track out. I didn't have time to do the mix and master properly either. The reason I went ahead and submitted my entry anyway was because BRB's vocal track was outstanding and it gave me the inspiration to pick up my guitar and lay down a track. I literally listened to the vocal track once then played and recorded the clean guitar track. The guitars and bass were scratch tracks and there was no editing (I know, it showed).

In summary, let us please keep the proper perspective on the shootout. By it's very nature, it has to be subjective. (Could be a lot worse, ask the teenagers in your family to rank the songs - they won't even have any reasons for their ranking.) Let's keep this a positive experience for all and do it again.

Thanks,
Greg
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  #55  
Old 10-06-2002, 08:07 PM
Roy Howell Roy Howell is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Greg M,

You should be damn proud of what you came up with. Yes, if the drum track wasn't there, or if it's replaced with a better one, there is a very good song there. As I tried to say in my comments, you came up with an excellent arrangement, and the chords are great. We knew that you had to do a rush job to get your entry in, but we simply had to take the drums into account.
It's a good song, Greg, and I want you to know that you are obviously a talented writer and guitarist in my opinion. We look forward to hearing your future creations as well. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks, Roy
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  #56  
Old 10-06-2002, 09:12 PM
synthguy99 synthguy99 is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

I have to eep now. EEP! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

I was watching a CART race and talking with a friend of mine that I got stuck with over the weekend while trying to post mine above, and I'm sure my post window was open over half an hour while I kept getting distracted by him and the race, so my post was pretty short for what I wanted to say. Then when Peter quoted from it, I went back and re-read it, and it made it sound like he was a twirp that only listened to Madonna and Tool.

EEP! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

And I completely forgot to mention Roy at all! DOUBLE EEP! I must appologize. I'd intended to comment on how good a job, and thorough, you two guys had done. If it's any excuse, my friend had been staying with me, he's a little strange, talks relentlessly about everything imaginable, and his mere presence in the house completely wrecked my sleep for that week. Needless to say starting a job at 7 am hasn't been fun last week. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I hope I didn't come across as gloaty or sneery as a few in the past have done here. I don't want to be anything but everyone's friend. Can we be friends? [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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  #57  
Old 10-06-2002, 09:20 PM
top1percent top1percent is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Roy,

I think your suggestions are very accurate.

The drums pretty much stink. Since I don't own a drum machine and have never used drum loops, this was the hardest part of the song for me to create. I'm certainly not a drummer by any means. I ended up borrowing a Technics KN7000 from my store and used the standard kit to do a simple sequence in one evening. I think your observations are dead on. Bastiaan didn't care for the kick drum either. On the next shootout I'll make sure I take more time creating the drum tracks, or I might try using some loops.

As soon as my schedule clears up I will try remixing the song using some of your suggestions. I can't wait to hear how much better it will sound.

Once again, thanks for taking your time to help. This is the whole reason I entered this contest; to learn what I can do to make myself better. You and Peter did a great job.

Thanks guys,
Brad
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  #58  
Old 10-06-2002, 10:17 PM
mjames08 mjames08 is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Okay lets do it again! I didn't get to participate because of time constraints [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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  #59  
Old 10-07-2002, 12:19 AM
Roy Howell Roy Howell is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

"Roy,
You gave me a 1 in Producing. Okay, now the question. In your opinion, what should I do to make the production better? Your advice would be greatly appreciated." - Top1percent/Brad

Hi Brad,

First, please understand that this was very difficult, because your overall concept is so good. Last night, Captain Pants and I were listening to it while InstantMessaging, and there's no doubt, you've created an excellent song here.(It's obviously Captain Pants' favorite).

While you probably deserved at least a 2, I had 144 decisions to make, other than overall comments, and I went with a 1 on this, mainly and mostly because of the first verse, which though is dripping with sincerity and feeling, can be much better, in my opinion.
Your chorus is very good (probably my favorite chording entry).

Now, I am quite aware that these creations of ours are like our children, and when somebody points out their flaws, it can be tough to take. But, though I did not volunteer for this, I did accept the job, and I feel a responsibility to be honest.

So, having said that, would you like me to give my improvement suggestions here on the DUC, or by email? I've jotted down what, if you and I were sitting together listening, I would suggest.

Thanks, Roy
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  #60  
Old 10-07-2002, 06:41 AM
soundsurfr soundsurfr is offline
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Default Re: Peter & Roy\'s PTLe Shootout 1: ~FINAL RESULTS~

Top1:

Quote:
The drums pretty much stink. Since I don't own a drum machine and have never used drum loops, this was the hardest part of the song for me to create. I'm certainly not a drummer by any means. I ended up borrowing a Technics KN7000 from my store and used the standard kit to do a simple sequence in one evening. I think your observations are dead on. Bastiaan didn't care for the kick drum either. On the next shootout I'll make sure I take more time creating the drum tracks, or I might try using some loops.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That will do wonders for your production, which was otherwise pretty damn good. You're not alone - Ask any producer or A&R person - by far the biggest problem with work submitted by musicians who record on their own is that their drum sounds are not up to par. Just plugging in a drum machine doesn't cut it anymore, unless you're a really good drum programmer and you're doing music that is meant to sound programmed.

I recommend picking up a copy of Acid - you can even get Acid lite (it's either free or really cheap)and start combing the internet for loops. There are free loops all over the place,and some of them are incredible. Even the Acid website (www.acidplanet.com) lets you download 8-10 new loops every week for free. I have a library of literally thousands of loops that I downloaded for free over the past two years. (And a few thousand others that I did pay for.)

If you want to, once you're set up with Acid or a similar loop program, e-mail me and I'll point you to some good stuff. Also, I can e-mail you a few good rock drum loops to get you started.

Acid will let you tweak the tempo and drag/drop loops together to preview them, then you import them into Pro-Tools. PT's audio editing capabilities are so good that you can work wonders with loops that you import into PT. You can edit right down to the individual drum hits, crossfade loops to eliminate clicks and pops at the repeat points, etc., etc. Once you get the hang of it, your drum tracks will sound real (almost - there's no substitute for a real drummer) and your productions will come to life. Contact me if you have any questions on how to do any of this.

Do it, man. I'm looking forward to hearing your track with a good rhythm section underneath it.
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