Push more gain into AUX track with master fader?

[musicmixer04]

I read this some place but cant remember where:

"I always have sub buses at the top of my session, in this case ‘All Drums’, ‘All Bass’ and ‘All Keys’, and where appropriate I will also often have ‘All Guitars’, ‘All Lead Vocals’, ‘All Backing Vocals’ and ‘All FX’. Part of the logic behind that is that master faders have a deeper bit resolution than auxiliary tracks, so if you are attaching a master fader to control the input of those aux tracks, in theory you can push a little more gain into those aux tracks."

I cant really get my head around this. What does it mean? get more volume out of Pro Tools? Some kind of trick? Set up a master fader for each aux sub bus? But the master fader are after, not before?

[Top Jimmy]

Originally Posted by musicmixer04

I read this some place but cant remember where:

"I always have sub buses at the top of my session, in this case ‘All Drums’, ‘All Bass’ and ‘All Keys’, and where appropriate I will also often have ‘All Guitars’, ‘All Lead Vocals’, ‘All Backing Vocals’ and ‘All FX’. Part of the logic behind that is that master faders have a deeper bit resolution than auxiliary tracks, so if you are attaching a master fader to control the input of those aux tracks, in theory you can push a little more gain into those aux tracks."

I cant really get my head around this. What does it mean? get more volume out of Pro Tools? Some kind of trick? Set up a master fader for each aux sub bus? But the master fader are after, not before?

More bits doesn't mean more volume. More bits means lower quantization noise. I think that quote came from someone confusing "more bits" with "bong hits".

I guarantee that there isn't any truth to a theory about pushing more gain into aux tracks. Gain is gain whether at 32-bit float or 64-bit float. That's just someone's imagination getting the best of them.

[musicmixer04]

I think that quote came from someone confusing "more bits" with "bong hits".

Thanks for reply, appreciate it

I went through some articles I downloaded and then I remembered were i got my notes from. It was from a SOS article about Andrew Wuepper
See middle section under "sorry state"

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...bieber-purpose

Must be a typo from SOS maybe?

I guess he just runs the aux tracks into the Master fader. Nothing special

[JFreak]

Few things need to be understood, not get confused.

First of all every output (physical or buss) in a PT mixer has a master fader, whether visible or not. It is juts the way the mixer is built. But if it is visible, you can control that output with a fader and have post-fader plugins that are not delay compensated. You do not have to have all master faders visible, only those you are using for control levels and/or have some plugin processing.

Then there is gain. As said gain is gain and as long as 24bit wordlength is enough for your material then PT mixer does not care whether you use bits 1-20 or 5-24 as long as you don't clip it. Having a master fader may help in gain staging so if you want to think bits you can move your stuff from bits 1-20 to 5-24 if you need to, but usually it would be better and simpler to just turn the damn volume knob.

Also the bits of your audio track and bits of your mixer are used for different things. Audio track, for example 24bit fixed-point WAV can represent 144dB dynamics, which means if your converter spec says 124dB you have 20dB headroom to record. And it really means if you record hotter than -20dBFS peaks you are only amplifying the noise, not improving your signal. The mixer however needs more bits than that, because its function is to combine many 24bit words together. In other words more bits in the mixer, more full level tracks it can combine without going over. Again, as long as you stay below clipping you would not notice which bits the mixer is using.

Point being if you take a minute to think about your gain staging and avoid clipping your best level control is the volume knob of your monitoring system.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by musicmixer04

I guess he just runs the aux tracks into the Master fader.

Read my previous post. You do not run anything into master fader. Your buss or physical output can be controlled with it. And it is there with zero settings even when not visible.

[musicmixer04]

ok thanks for explaining. I think I understood everything. You guys should make a video explaining. You have some great knowledge:) I have used Pro tools for 17 years and I have still something to learn I guess. I guess what Andrew Wuepper said is impossible anyways?

I mean you cant set up a master fader for each aux. But maybe he meant a vca fader?

In my mixing setup what I have done is to send stuff to different busses like All drums, All keys , All vocals etc then all those busses are controlled by one VCA fader for convenience. Output of all those busses goes too an Aux track with master buss plugins on. Then output of that aux goes to a Master fader and sometimes a Stereo audio track If I need to print the mix.

When I read Andrew Wuepper statement I thought he did something else to his similar setup that made it possible to get more RMS into that last aux track (with the master bus plugins) And that "his way" could be an improvement of my mixing setup if you understand?

[JFreak]

Plenty of ways to add gain, as long as you stay below clipping it is alright. Just be careful because clipping in floating point mixer is not so obvious than fixed point mixer (TDM) and once you go over your sounds starts to smear gradually. You might not even notice it at first, just wondering why it suddenly does not sound good to you. Fixed point mixer like TDM gives you nasty distortion as soon as you hit red.

[musicmixer04]

ok Thanks:)!

[albee1952]

FWIW(and this is just my opinion), pushing more gain is probably the last thing needed in any DAW

[Ben Jenssen]

Originally Posted by musicmixer04

When I read Andrew Wuepper statement I thought he did something else to his similar setup that made it possible to get more RMS into that last aux track (with the master bus plugins) And that "his way" could be an improvement of my mixing setup if you understand?

I understand.
And it is complete nonsense.

Janne and Dave are of course right. I'll try to put it my way; there is no way to put "more punch" into your mix, other than the old way; good mixing. EQ and dynamics. This is the essence of digital audio processing; the sound is the same whether it's loud or soft, as long as you keep levels low enough not to go into clipping, and high enough to avoid the noise floor.

In the old days we could "push" a mixer or any analog gear to slightly change the sound, but in digital, it's just maths. That's why we keep repeating; your interface volume knob is your best friend; keep your PT meters in the green, and use that knob to listen.

Then, when you think the mix sounds good, you bounce a final file and make shure its highest peaks are below 0.0dbfs, not clipping.

This became kinda rudimental (rudi-mental ), but I think it can't be said often enough.