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  #101  
Old 03-08-2009, 01:38 PM
Kenny Gioia Kenny Gioia is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by Howardk View Post
reasonable people work things out, others make lawyers rich.
Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #102  
Old 03-08-2009, 01:49 PM
Kenny Gioia Kenny Gioia is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by peppertree View Post
To clarify some points about intellectual property (IANAL btw):

There are a few forms of IP relevant here.

1) Copyright
2) Patent
3) Trademark
4) Trade Secret

What most of you are talking about isn't copyright, it's #4, Trade Secret.

Mixing is about a PROCESS of taking given input and generating given output. This could be protected by Patent or Trade Secret protections. Patents would be hard to obtain here; you might invent something like putting an oscillator on a sidechain to make that Belgian dance throb effect and patent it, but most mixing processes would be invalidated by the "prior art" clause.

Still, you can argue that your specific mixing technique is a trade secret and that is what you are in fact saying. Copyright has nothing to do with it...you could, I guess, copyright your DAW session files and recall data, but that would be a total waste of time. Trade secrets are what you are arguing, and those are indeed protected even though they obviously aren't registered with the gov't like other IP's.

Trademarks refer to your brand...hiphoppers/R&Bers have recently taken to putting "tags" on their "beats" where they have some sexy or robotic voice say the name of their studio or producer at the start of a song. That would be a trademark and you could argue rights over where those trademarks are placed (i.e. on everything you make and nothing you didn't approve of, etc.).

But back to trade secrets; it's all negotiable, as stated, as to what you will yield or expect from a client. You can, as a mixer, sign a nondisclosure agreement covering your trade secrets, which would prevent what Kenny is worried about but still give the client recall capability of the ITB mix. You could put the recall data into an escrow service. There's tons of things you could do.

But more practically, the general gist to the OP here is that "real mixers" start from scratch (well, usually final edits are nice to have) and so the recall data is usually of little use. However, it's possible that a special effect was achieved at the earlier studio that people want to retain...for instance, a specific Filter Freak setting that is endemic to the production...and in those cases, a print of that effect or recall data is something the client should negotiate for with the earlier mixer.

"I never say no, I only quote a price..."

Very true. The only reason for the client to have your mix settings is if they want to re-adjust your mix. Which they have no right to really do. A simple request to that mixer will get the job done.
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  #103  
Old 03-08-2009, 01:58 PM
Kenny Gioia Kenny Gioia is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by Mark Dann View Post
I would like Digidesign to add an option in the "Save A Copy In..." dialog box. And that is the ability to save a session WITH ALL PLUGINS removed. I think there are situations where a lot of mixers would want to choose that option when handing sessions over. In those situations, that would save a lot of time.
Believe it or not, I'm not a fan of doing any extra work to give the client less.

Feels like bad karma. Petty.

If I produce and mix a project I just hand in everything. The chances of the label having all my plugins (and summing box) are pretty small.

If they want to use an outside mixer they'll usually tell me so I can prep the files for that mixer. They usually prefer a flat mix. No plugins, automation etc.

If it's just a mixing gig, I send them the stereo master and keep the Pro Tools file. They already have the session from the Producer.
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  #104  
Old 03-08-2009, 02:04 PM
Kenny Gioia Kenny Gioia is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by Mark Dann View Post
I would like Digidesign to add an option in the "Save A Copy In..." dialog box. And that is the ability to save a session WITH ALL PLUGINS removed. I think there are situations where a lot of mixers would want to choose that option when handing sessions over. In those situations, that would save a lot of time.
The easiest way to achieve this is to open a new session.

Then import just the audio tracks (don't need auxes and masters) from your mix session but don't include plugins, sends, volume automation etc.

You then have a raw tracks master. Might want to keep the pans though.
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  #105  
Old 03-08-2009, 05:45 PM
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studiojimi studiojimi is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
The easiest way to achieve this is to open a new session.

Then import just the audio tracks (don't need auxes and masters) from your mix session but don't include plugins, sends, volume automation etc.

You then have a raw tracks master. Might want to keep the pans though.
in the past i've saved the session as "title here"_archive_date

or something like that

i consolidate the tracks right into the audio folder


open the audio files folder

view by date

then color them red and drop them into a folder and hand it to the client.

done deal

i'll never need to open that session file version again...bingo.
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  #106  
Old 03-08-2009, 06:09 PM
peppertree peppertree is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by studiojimi View Post
i consolidate the tracks right into the audio folder

open the audio files folder

view by date

then color them red and drop them into a folder and hand it to the client.

done deal

i'll never need to open that session file version again...bingo.
Fortunately I charge by the hour for reconstructing sessions like this, where poor file naming discipline makes it all but impossible to figure out what was a stereo pair, etc. etc...when a 100kilobyte session file could have been dragged onto the disc at the same time and saved the client hundreds of dollars of headscratching. Not to mention lack of MIDI, inability to fix bad edits, etc. etc.

I should get an intern to fix messes like that...

In the meantime the clients I can't convince to record everything here I insist on bringing everything they can for me to prepare by hand. Seeing other people's mixing habits is more or less a freakshow to me...eeeewwwww is what I tend to say the most.
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  #107  
Old 03-08-2009, 06:21 PM
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studiojimi studiojimi is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by peppertree View Post
Fortunately I charge by the hour for reconstructing sessions like this, where poor file naming discipline makes it all but impossible to figure out what was a stereo pair, etc. etc...

I should get an intern to fix messes like that...

it takes less than 5 minutes

the rest is burn and walk away
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  #108  
Old 03-08-2009, 06:39 PM
peppertree peppertree is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by studiojimi View Post
it takes less than 5 minutes

the rest is burn and walk away
I'm talking about being on the receiving end of "burn and walk away".

To be utterly clear, I want from the client EVERYTHING THEY'VE GOT. And they should ask for everything as well from whoever they are working with. That includes whatever state of the working session file was current. Ideally, I will even have their computer's startup drive!

Basically NO ONE other than a pro mixer knows how to prepare a session for mixing. They don't know when they are printing effects, printing trims, printing bad edits, nothing. They don't even have the ability to hear what they are doing. I have learned to assume total ignorance and incompetence and I have yet to be proven wrong.

And to be clear to the OP, this does NOT mean I want someone else's mixing doodles. I'm saying I would want everything you sent to the other mixer (and possibly more, if you "simiplified" or "consolidated" anything for them).
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  #109  
Old 03-08-2009, 06:48 PM
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studiojimi studiojimi is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by peppertree View Post
I'm talking about being on the receiving end of "burn and walk away".

that's not what i was talking about

i was talking about giving back whole files to clients

but no session files.

roll on.:rolley es:
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  #110  
Old 03-08-2009, 06:56 PM
peppertree peppertree is offline
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Default Re: Engineer is giving my band information, IS IT THE TRUTH??

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Originally Posted by studiojimi View Post
that's not what i was talking about

i was talking about giving back whole files to clients

but no session files.

roll on.:
Roll on is kinda early 80's.

So you are saying that as a producer/engineer you're giving the clients final edits as consolidated audio and no session data. Which means that they have no means of changing anything without going through you. Then presumably the clients go to some other mixer to have them mixed. In that case I'd rather as a mixer to work with the producer directly.

Or maybe you're saying as mixer you're giving them consolidated multitrack audio? Why would they want that...that's just another form of what they handed you. Are you talking about stems?



Oh if you are both the producer and the mixer and you are giving them consolidated multitrack audio for safekeeping or something then I guess it makes vague sense. One hopes you have an excellent naming convention though (for scribble strips, Title Case Is The Best Standard!!!, BUT MANY IDIOTS USE ALL CAPS and a lot of other morons think they're cool using all lowercase).
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