Building a silent HD or HDX system?

[TNM]

Hi everyone, this is my goal for 2018 and where my mind has completely settled. To give up my apollos and go to an integrated solution..

HDX is the most interesting one, as i could keep my current computer and all my favourite plugins are available as dsp anyway. I already own dsp licenses to most of them by coincidence. I would keep my thunderbolt satellite UADs to still be able to use uad FX within pro tools itself, if not for monitoring anymore.

BUT.. i can't seem to find a way to do it quietly.

The HDX card has it's own fan, and i'd want two, but to top it off, i can't seem to find a silent thunderbolt to pcie expander... and then the interfaces themselves, well the avid ones, seem to have fans.

1) How noisy is each hdx card?
2) What is your recommendation for lowest noise for expansions chassis?
3) How noisy are the avid interfaces that have a fan?

Second option is HD.. instead of HDX i'd get a new imac pro with 64gb ram (or maybe 32) , HD native thunderbolt which is silent, and 2 interfaces to fully take advantage of the 64 available inputs.
I'd probably get a goliath or something like that, which can do 64 in one interface by utilising both of the hd native's i/o connectors - that way i'd still have some nice dsp monitoring or i could use native effects with 0 latency, which is the benefit over the HDX system, especially when stacking effects.
The other option would be to build a super quiet and powerful windows 10 desktop PC.
This option is automatically going to be the quietest, as the antelop interface is silent, as is the HDN thunderbolt, and imac pro is meant to be very quiet as would a pc i built if i went that way instead.
BUT i'd be relying on my cpu's for everything that is live, or realtime.
UADs would no longer be a monitoring option afaik, where as right now, i use very heavy monitoring apollo console sessions, that would all be transferred to native cpu.. i know for a fact either one of my current macs couldn't do it, not even close, which is why i would need a new machine.
The 32 input limitation is what is annoying me about UAD, and i'd like to go PT HD since i checked it out more closely last night and realised there are quite a few advantages to the software. Not least of all the 128 playback track count at 96K , and 64 ins, vs currently 64 playback and 32 ins,, which i can go over easily in bigger arrangements.

Look, in my heart, i feel i am aging, and yiu only live once, and HDX is the goal. I love the idea of dsp doing the pdc, the fact that i would gain sidechain PDC as well for dsp plugins, well basically, the computer is doing nothing other than the main gui and midi.. plus any few native aax plugins i might use now and then.
But i am very very sensitive to computer noise, hence the real reason for this entire topic.

Final possibility would be to build a quiet windows 10 PC, with a quiet case, and put 2 HDX cards in *that*, and try to find silent converters for them rather than avid ones. I'd build it with a fanless GPU, noctua cooler, no overclock, the 7820X processor, 32 or 64 ram, 2 x m2 SSD's, 2 x sata SSD, one mechanical 7200 Sata.. and i can still use the thunderbolt satellites as UAD is compatible now with certain thunderbolt windows motherboards, just as it is with mac.. the same functionality..
And ironically, building a PC that is twice as powerful as my current 2011 quad core imac, would not be that much more expensive than adding a 2 bay thunderbolt pcie to my imac, (+ cables), so if i go HDX a PC seems to make sense.

Which is why i was troubled where to post this topic, because hd and hdx are divided into separate mac and pc forums. Feel free, anyone who has experience with both and HD/HDX, to add your 2c here.. i would *love* to hear any advise and will definitely take it on board. Not only that, i will sincerely appreciate it. Thanks for getting through my long post.

Cheers

[albee1952]

As always, YMMV, but having worked on both HDX and HD/Native systems, I prefer HDN Why? For me, its down to plugin latency. Now if I was doing things wrong, hopefully someone will point that out(I don't wish to mislead anybody), but many stock plugins that report zero latency on my HDN rig(things like EQ III) reported quite a bit of latency on HDX, and I felt I was indeed hearing latency. I rarely even think about it on my HDN system, mostly because I have developed a habit of tracking with certain plugins disabled(many of my Waves plugins and ALL of my UA plugins). Tracking bands at a buffer setting of 64 and maximum plugin ADC of 11 samples(Console 1 combined with Amplitube on a bass/amp AUX track) works fine and I never hear any musician comments about latency in headphones(doing 6 custom mixes with sends in my sessions).

If you have the cash for HDX, I'm not saying DON'T buy it, just suggesting a bit more research.

As for a "silent" rig, that's why machine rooms/closets and ISO-boxes exist Early on, I started my Pro Tools journey with a 1-room setup and built an over-sized box that I lined with Auralex Sheetblock. I stuck the tower in and had room for 2" foam on both sides and the top and the foam extended out a foot past the back of the tower. I set it in the corner of the room(about 4' away from my desk) and had no trouble tracking vocal and acoustic guitar right from my chair These days, I have a control room and booths for vocals and acoustic so the fan noise from my tower and 3 HD IO boxes is not an issue

[Watagushu2013]

Your two choices are good ones I think.
I use HDX with UAD quad all running in a Mac Pro 2009 pimped to 2010 firmware, 3.46 12 core machine.
The things I know is that the HDX cards have a fan that starts right away when you open protools and work for five minutes. I was told by a designer (it’s not any official statement so take it like it is) but that the fans are really for extraordinary events in heat, not the usual working environment. So are not that critical. But only take my word on it, probably you should investigate further.
As with the interfaces, i run two avid interfaces with replaced fans with no problem at all. Protools expert has a post about this with great examples and different options I went to buy Noctua quiet fans that run perfect on the interfaces and let me work in the same room with them.
I think also that you can replace a noisy fan from expansion chassis if you check forums with this kind of issues because i work with a Mac Pro and is deliberately behind the console to make it more quiet.
And finally I can only say that I love to work on dsp systems because you can have a lot of more headroom for different tasks: zero latency monitoring on all of your outputs ( hd native can only use 2). All of your audio data is going thru the card and not on your host system so you can use more host power for plugins and automation. Mix and match dsp plugs with native ones. UAD is perfect integrated to the system etc etc.
On the other side, a native system has its own advantages but personally I like the dsp systems for big mixes and stability. I think also that there are few guys like me now. There’s not much different going thru the native way either. Just workflows.
And last but not least is that Avid open the Digilink so now you can buy any interface with digilink connectivity and the are a lot out there without fans. Antelope gotliath and Burl mothership is an example of quiet and super great ADDA converters. I use a Burl mothership also with my avid interfaces, a lot of channels,a lot of options.

[Dan IceWood]

The only option I can recommend is either of the Sonnnet chassis, then use a silly priced Owens & Corning fibe optic Thunderbolt cable - then you can stick it 25'-50' feet away if you wished to.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by Dan IceWood

The only option I can recommend is either of the Sonnnet chassis, then use a silly priced Owens & Corning fibe optic Thunderbolt cable - then you can stick it 25'-50' feet away if you wished to.

First, thank you everyone for the replies.. I appreciate this place and it's people so much.

Just a quick one, whilst i digest everything..

I have one room to work in. That's the issue here. I would have been fine with noisy everything if i could put it in another room. It's literally impossible where I am.

I have one decent size room, 4.1 by 4.3 metres, sadly a very high (4 metre also) roof that slopes, and the resonances are terrible vs my old treated room.. I have to work out somehow to tame that ceiling - but i digress.. i have the one room and that's it.

My imac 2011 has never made enough noise to bother me, ever. I can build a windows machine that when under the desk is literally inaudible, and i'll use elastic suspension for the one mechanical hdd (all others would be SSD) in an acoustically lined case.. i wouldn't even hear the HDD seeks.
I am very experienced at building silent PC's as before I went mac, i was obsessed with doing a new one every single year for many years.
I believe a trashcan mac pro is also inaudible under a desk.

The issus is HDX cards and chassis fans.. I am the type that likes guarantees.. with HDX i get a guaranteed track count and it's done from the cards. I am a lover of seperate DSP and always have been.. so that IS my first choice..

I guess I am going to have to do some research into changing HDX card fans and maybe go PC.

really if I go HDX, even an 8700K would be WAY more than enough processor.. 64GB ram can be had for 500 ish, the chip for like 550, then motherboard, case, PSU, i already have a 480GB sandisk extreme 2.5" SSD that i haven't used yet, as well as a USB 3 silent lacie 512GB SSD.. the sandisk would be internal sample storage, probably devoted to komplete, the lacie samples, and i also have a brand new 1TB WD black 7200 for my audio drive. I would buy 2 M2 SSDs, 1 512 gb for OS and stuff, and 1x 1TB for all my other sample libraries. I already have multiple USB3 and TBolt backup drives to clone to.

So let's say, for mobo 400 (remember this is AUD not cheap USD prices), ram 500, chip 550 and 2 drives, PSU..it would be around 2500 AUD to build a very strong windows 10 machine with 8700K, 6 core processor, with 64 gb ram, which would run rings around my 2600K quad core from 2011 in my imac..
and i could probably get that back for my imac anyway in AU, it was 4.4k as was fully maxxed out at the time, about half price is right from what I see on ebay. Maybe 2k wt worst.
I'll then buy a 30" 2560x1600 monitor with that.

Then it's the HDX.. no need for expansions chassis with PC, 2 HDX cards go internal. perhaps with the right case, even as is, the 2 HDX cards will be sufficiently muted internally to not bother me.

So i ask.. are the HDX cards LOUD, i am talking about the HDX cards as they come, stock. How loud do they get on an average session?

I hate tinkering with stuff that voids warranty, i really really do. I am even considering having the system built from a reputable shop so i get an actual whole system warranty for 3 years rather than building it myself and getting only parts warranties. It's $200 difference to have it built ($85 for build if i buy parts from that popular store, and then the extra 2 years warranty on top of the included 1 year). I really might consider that, and not have to get my hands dirty at all.

I really don't need to get avid interfaces either.

Does changing the fan though, on avid interfaces, void the warranty?

I guess i should ask avid that.

OR, i could just keep my perfectly quiet mac, not spend a cent on a new PC, and just use thunderbolt chassis for HDX.

The chassis aren't cheap though and once again, i wonder if I void warranty by mucking about with fans.

Once again I have lots of thinking to do.

I think the next step, is to investigate chassis, fan changes on hdx cards and chassis, and how it might affect warranty. As well as cost for a 2 slot chassis and good noctua fans with the ulm resistor wire to lower their speed, to replace stock fans.
If anyone has any recommendations specifically for fans for the HDX cards or chassis other than noctua, please let me know! i Am all ears!

Final option is to go HDN and the only way i would do that is on a trashcan mac pro (no i'm not crazy, they have 6 thunderbolt 2 ports and i have spent a small fortune on thunderbolt 2 cables, as well as they are quiet and the 8 core is still enough power for what i would need to do, and no building involved), OR a PC with an internal pcie HDN card.. the card is fanless and would free my PC thunderbolt port for my uad satellites..

I am also finding it hard to find HDN round trip monitoring latencies (through zero latency native FX, i will always want to monitor through the pro tools mixer with FX) at 44K. Avid only quote the 96K figure.. I think asking a system to monitor 64 channels at 96k at 64 buffer is just too much to ask (And then to use kontakt in the sessions on top of that? Um.. yeah right.) I will never monitor with native FX that add latency, so unlike HDX where every effect adds latency, my HDN monitoring latency would literally be whatever the standard RTL of the card + converters is.
If that figure is acceptable at 44K, then HDN might be the way to go.

I would love to hear from some HDN users and mac pros or imacs, on how their cpu usage/spiking is at the lowest buffer.

So much to get through.. sorry, and thank you!

[TNM]

Hmm, and just like that, my dream of HDX is over.. i have spent all day researching it, and no one likes the idea of replacing the card fans.. all suggest to put it in a different room.

Apparently the noise is obnoxious and there is no TC.. so the fans are either just on at full boar or off. People saying fans crazy at 30 tracks 48K.. um.. yeah i will do many projects needing more than that, so my HDX fans would never stop.

If i got a windows machine, the hdx cards would be in the main case, and i like the main case to be under the desk near me where i can get to my dongles, other usb stuff, my blu ray drive, etc..

TO use HDX, it actually makes *sense* to do it via thunderbolt pcie chassis on a mac, and just have a hole in the wall with a wire and it in the other room. But then, what about interfaces? I like the interfaces to be at eye level at all times.. sure, THOSE i can replace the fans on, but still, warranty is voided.
So even if i DID get a HDX, i'd rather attach fan less interfaces to it like antelope. I find it very strange that an audio centric company like Avid has apparently paid no attention to fan noise on any of their high end products.. why not simply use high quality quiet fans? How can that affect their bottom line on multi thousand dollar interfaces and cards? Are Avid really that cheap? Must be.

So.. if somehow i could get a thunderbolt pcie chassis in another room, i'd then also need to feed the digilink connection cables through the wall to the other room too, as i want the interfaces in the main control room.
If i went HDX there would be no point changing my imac 2600k 3.4ghz i7 quad at all.. I'd just do it all via thunderbolt.

SO.. HDN is the one that is looking interesting.. but with silent fanless NON avid interfaces.. in that case though i have no choice but to get a kick ass computer..
I think the best thing now is for me to start a topic in the PC forum, specifically on HDN on win 10, monitoring 64 tracks at low latency with regards to cpu usage, and using non avid interfaces.

Or avid could just man up and offer 64 ins for non avid i/o.. (that said, it wouldn't have hurt universal audio to simply make a HD compatible apollo, that would solve pretty much everything too).

It's starting to feel like, despite the 32 in limitation, my current, SILENT, uad apollo system might be a keeper after all, and just keep using vanilla PT.

Avid really do make it difficult you know, they really want to pimp their top gear, but thankfully the situation is much better now than it was 10 years ago for example, when PT LE was severely crippled.

[Drew Mazurek]

I have computer and all interfaces in a dedicated machine room and I couldn’t be happier. Powered USB hub in control room allows me to connect whatever I need. I do need to go to machine room for CDs etc but it’s close.

[TNM]

Originally Posted by Drew Mazurek

I have computer and all interfaces in a dedicated machine room and I couldn’t be happier. Powered USB hub in control room allows me to connect whatever I need. I do need to go to machine room for CDs etc but it’s close.

Hi Drew, thanks.

I live with family in a new townhouse and i have been strictly forbidden to do such a thing.. i am not even allowed to put any sound absorption on my studio room walls.. i have to invest in highly overpriced portable auralex type stuff..

At least the room itself is quite big and comfortable.. It's also very cool as the windows are tinted :) Coolest room in summer in the entire house, bearable even when 35 outside (celsius).

Please you can go ahead and close this, i am leaning towards HDN but need to start another more appropriate topic, so will go ahead and do so.
Cheers

[propower]

- HDX card in Sonnet Chassis in homemade iso box. Kitchen cabinet from Home Depot - lined with soundproof materials - fan for intake and exhaust - 10 feet away in closet. Barely audible. ~$200 to make. 3 meter TB and HDX cables.

- HD i/o with silenx fans. Not silent but 90% better than AVID stock. $15.

- iMac 2017 i5: as quiet as my 2013 Cylinder 6 core. New iMacPro 2017 8 core is said to be quieter still even under moderate load

- Antelope Orion 2017 - silent. A bit quirky but 6 months now and very happy. Single Orion 32HD would get 32X32 for a good price to see how it goes. two would get the full 64X64 HDN could do. If you went either this way or Goliath I would recommend using a dealer with a good return policy.

- RTL for HDN, HDX and Antelope - just search my posts.

- I would never go back to HDX unless I was recording large groups all the time.

I currently use two serial runs of optical 33' TB cables and two OWC TB docks to tie 2 rooms together with a mid station. Multiple mirrored monitors - and many peripherals. Totally happy with this and zero impact on any latency. Paid 1/2 price for cables by shopping around (both were new - $125 each) - about $200 for each of the OWC docks. 100 foot DigiLink cables are available too.

[TNM]

thank you.. ok then if you are using HDN, perhaps you can answer the question i have been scouring the web to find an answer to, or a video even better, but haven't been able to.

On your mac, when selecting 32 buffer on HDN, and monitoring multiple inputs at once, what happens to cpu?