Persistent effects possible?

[moff]

I'm not even sure if this can be done on the 11R right now, but is there a way to have effects stay on, even when changing patches?

I understand that if the patch (rig) is saved with FX disabled, then that will be the state they go to when you switch to that rig. I was just hoping there might be a way to make the fx retain their current status (engaged\bypassed) when changing patches, or a "global" effects mode, that would separate FX from the amp, and allow me to use this like I use any other rig.

On a traditional rig, channel switching is separate from FX. I can go from a clean setting with chorus to a more saturated patch, also with chorus. The chorus doesn't turn off when I switch channels. I'd like to be able to do the same thing with 11R.

So far the only workaround I've found is to either make specific patches that are essentially the same as my basic patches, except with <effect> enabled by default, which essentially wastes a memory location, or to program my FCB1010 to use existing rigs, and add (effect) to them (wasting a memory location on the FCB).

[moff]

Anyone? Not even a "no", or "I don't know"? A simple acknowledgment of the question, even if you don't know the answer, would go a long way...

[fly_with_v]

Don't think so, except with Midi commands to change the FX state.

[jesling]

I guess I just don't understand how this is different or how it would be a benefit.

Originally Posted by moff

Anyone? Not even a "no", or "I don't know"? A simple acknowledgment of the question, even if you don't know the answer, would go a long way...

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by moff

Anyone? Not even a "no", or "I don't know"? A simple acknowledgment of the question, even if you don't know the answer, would go a long way...

Well, offhand and without much thought - I try to do as little thinking as possible - I'm sure it's technically feasible but ...

Using a MIDI controller, you change a patch, 11R recognizes this, changes patch, the persistent effect come into operation, sends CC message to Controller so it knows that the effect is on and changes state of the controller, and user is aware of what's happenning. Well, that can't happen at the moment - the makers of the 11prom made us aware of that. So there would be no way to turn the effect off with the MIDI controller because as far as the MIDI controller is concerned the effect is not on. I'm probably wrong though, I usually am .

But I am really having trouble with the idea of a persistent state, if you want a persistent type effect than save your settings for that effect using the "Effect Presets" option and then apply it in your patches you need to use that way, so you have the exact same effect within each patch.

If you use XML to create rigs, as I do, you can use all 104 user presets for a single gig. So unless you are "Dream Theatre", - we're not worthy, we're not worthy - than that should suffice.

[moff]

I'll try to make it clearer...

First, I should specify that I'm talking about this for live use. I'd like the option for the FX on the 11R to stay in their "current state" (on or off) even if I change patches. The benefit would be so that the 11R can be used in the same way as a traditional guitar amp and effects. With a traditional rig, FX are separate from amp switching. I can switch channels or even amps, and whatever FX are on, stay on.

I general, I'm not one of those guys who has to duplicate the guitar sounds on a recording - especially for live use. I don't want to fill up my 11R with a bunch of different patches for each part of every song I play. First, the audience won't notice or care, and second, the FOH guy's just going to mess it up anyway.

I work more generically than that - with three basic amp models (clean, crunch, and drive - maybe a "special", like a VH-like variac drive, or a Recto-type thing, but that's rare). I then embellish them with various FX as needed. I always use the same selection of FX - (dist/OD, boost, mod, wah, and maybe a "specialty" effect, like a talk-box, pitch\harmonizer, or Leslie). The mods and overdrives usually use the same setting all night, and I rarely use delay or reverb.

As an example, let's imagine playing a song that starts off clean but gets progressively dirtier and "bigger" as the song goes on, and all through the song, an effect is used - let's say chorus. With a traditional rig, I choose the clean channel on the amp, and turn on the chorus. At the second verse, I switch to a "crunch" channel, and the chorus stays on. On the last verse, I switch to a full-on drive channel, and the chorus, once again, stays on.

Not so on the 11R. My generic presets have effects available but turned off by default, so the 11R will turn the chorus off every time I switch presets. The only way I've found to achieve something like this on the 11R is to make a duplicate set of clean, crunch, and drive patches, and save them with chorus ON by default (which wastes memory locations on the 11R), or to make additional patches on the MIDI controller which call up the generic patches, but also turn on the chorus (which wastes memory locations on the controller). This is what I've done for now, but that wasted memory can increase pretty quickly if there are a bunch of songs that need a specific effect to stay on through a series of patch changes.

I suppose I could use my M13 for effects instead, and send cc messages to it on a separate midi channel, but that's more complicated, it means more programming on the MIDI controller, and adds more wiring and more weight. I'm trying to downsize. If I have to bring the 11R, a powered monitor, an M13 and a MIDI pedal board to a gig, where's the savings? Might as well stay with the Mk V, 2x12 and the monster pedal board.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by moff

I'll try to make it clearer...
I work more generically than that - with three basic amp models (clean, crunch, and drive - maybe a "special", like a VH-like variac drive, or a Recto-type thing, but that's rare). I then embellish them with various FX as needed. I always use the same selection of FX - (dist/OD, boost, mod, wah, and maybe a "specialty" effect, like a talk-box, pitch\harmonizer, or Leslie). The mods and overdrives usually use the same setting all night, and I rarely use delay or reverb.

I understand what you are saying ... but, for me it's easier to set up the FX I need for each patch as I don't want FX to persist - ever! I can set up to 104 presets for each rig. And/or if needed I could take to computer with me and load up more rigs as needed. Sometimes I wish I could change from one effect to another in the same bank like change from "White Boost" to "Green OD", but, never to persist.

So you are going to need 3 patches regardless you can't get around that.

One for clean.
One for crunch.
One for more crunch. (One for variac plexi & recto)

Unless Avid put in a #CC command to "change" Amps.

But at the moment there is no way to have the FX persist - that I know of - from one patch to another and it's a little counter-intuitive. You would need to copy all your FX to all three (or five) rigs. Then you would need use your controller to turn on/off individual FX as you wish.

That's all I can think of .

Maybe someone from Avid could chime in.

[Badcard]

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

Unless Avid put in a #CC command to "change" Amps.

What the OP is describing is a very well known limitation of the 11R (and of several modelers for that matter).
I also struggled to adapt to this way of operation and I'm afraid so far there's no way around it except those already exposed.

One nice feature I had on my previous multifx box was the ability to save 2 different amp/cab per patch so I could at least switch for clean to dirt easily (and activate a distortion/overdrive on top for lead).
Unfortunately, it's not possible with the 11R.

You either have to painfully program the MIDI controller to chance settings of the amp (gain/eq/etc...) or start with a clean patch and use the DIST fx block, but that's always a compromise.

A #CC command to change amps would certainly help, but you would still have to program some settings adjustment, so it's not very user friendly still.

Ultimately, the ability to save 2 different amp/cab + settings by patch with the possibility of toggling between them would increase the 11R flexibility tremendously, but I'm pretty sceptical that's it's going to happen.

[Vercingetorix]

Originally Posted by Badcard

What the OP is describing is a very well known limitation of the 11R (and of several modelers for that matter).
I also struggled to adapt to this way of operation and I'm afraid so far there's no way around it except those already exposed.

One nice feature I had on my previous multifx box was the ability to save 2 different amp/cab per patch so I could at least switch for clean to dirt easily (and activate a distortion/overdrive on top for lead).
Unfortunately, it's not possible with the 11R.

You either have to painfully program the MIDI controller to chance settings of the amp (gain/eq/etc...) or start with a clean patch and use the DIST fx block, but that's always a compromise.

A #CC command to change amps would certainly help, but you would still have to program some settings adjustment, so it's not very user friendly still.

Ultimately, the ability to save 2 different amp/cab + settings by patch with the possibility of toggling between them would increase the 11R flexibility tremendously, but I'm pretty sceptical that's it's going to happen.

I can understand that, I came from a Korg 1500AX Unit that had A/B settings A was a clean type setting hit the footswitch and you could go straight into a heavy/crunch/lead setting and toggle between them. I sort of miss that ability but the Korg was hardly a professional unit, but, I got good sounds out of it nonetheless. Anyway, I don't think Avid have any plans to do anything like that at all - unless an idea based on that really flew up the rankings on IdeaScale - I believe there is an idea like that on there though and voted for it .

But even with that unit there were no persistent FX you had to go through each patch element on the A/B path and set them.

[moff]

Originally Posted by Badcard

....One nice feature I had on my previous multifx box was the ability to save 2 different amp/cab per patch so I could at least switch for clean to dirt easily (and activate a distortion/overdrive on top for lead)...
[SNIP]
...Ultimately, the ability to save 2 different amp/cab + settings by patch with the possibility of toggling between them would increase the 11R flexibility tremendously, but I'm pretty sceptical that's it's going to happen.

That would work too.

I should add that I understand "why" I can't do this - when calling a patch, it's going to come up the way it was saved. Fair enough. I get that. I was a fairly early adopter of Line 6 stuff, starting with the Flextone and POD, flowing through Flex II and Pod II, to the XT Live. This behaviour was also a limitation of those units, and was a contributor to why I went back to tube amps and regular pedal board.

With the changes in modelling technology and hardware in the years since my XT Live was built, and with the 11R manual as ambiguous as it is, I was just hoping there was an "undocumented" user mode that might bypass that behaviour, sort of like being able to operate an FCB1010 in either "normal" or "stompbox" mode. Of course it would have to be something selectable by the user to most closely match how they work - a convenience and preference thing. After all, as long as there's enough CPU and memory in the unit itself, anything's possible. There just has to be demand for it (and a strong likelihood of a financial reward).

Like I said before, I'm not likely to fill the memory locations on my 11R or FCB anytime soon, so I can work around it, but it just seems wasteful to make multiple copies of the same patch (either on the 11 or on the foot controller), just because I want to have certain FX stay on.

I guess we're from different places operationally, but I don't know why people wouldn't want effects they'd turned on to stay on until THEY turned them off. That's how it is in a traditional rig: unless you turn your effect off, it's on, and unless you turn it on, it's off. That is the behaviour regardless of what channel or amp you've chosen. Maybe it's semantics, and the word "persistent" is not the right choice. I simply meant that if I've turned on the mod, I'd like the option to have it stay on, even if I change patches.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I put this in as a feature request on IdeaScale, so we'll have to see how it goes... Hey - go vote if you like the idea...