OT - What do you want from a drummer?

[millicent frndly]

This will be kinda long, thanks in advance for taking the time to read and respond. I'm going through some drummer drama... I wanted to throw this out and see if you guys could give me some advice. Probably not because this is a tough decision to make. As of right now I have 2 drummers.. don't ask me how I got into this situation it's a long story but I'll say a drummer quit, I met another and auditioned him then the first drummer decided to come back and now I have two. I'm having a hard time making up my mind.

I'll call the drummers Joe and Moe.. (the music is your basic pop/rock w/ some progressive tendencies)

Moe is the original drummer that's been working with us for almost 3 months (who quit and came back because I was riding his ass about over playing).. he has been playing drums for a long time, has some excellent chops and is a really nice guy. He tends to over play, sometimes it's cool, other times it's not. He quit originally because I was trying to get him to calm down because he was completely overplaying. Since he came back he's actually gotten much better but he still likes to throw little things in (hi-hat synchopated beats and stuff during verses). I think mainly because he gets bored. Stylistically we're different, he has some slight tempo issues mainly because he screws around alot. He's kind of a fly by the seat of your pants jammy drummer. Personally, he's very funny, nice, kind of weird/goofy but cool. I really like him but sometimes his drumming can push the envelope of what I can stand but he can do some cool impressive things on the drums.

Joe is the new guy, he's not as experienced as Moe, and we've only had 2 practices together. He's put alot of time into learning the songs and they're not really difficult but they aren't exactly easy either. Lots of punches, changes and breaks. He has this gift for time... that internal clock that all good drummers have. You know... the thing that allows them to lock into a tempo and keep it the whole song. He's got it, Moe really doesn't so much. Moe, like alot of drummers I've played with, will push or pull the beat every now and then, where Joe is basically IN THE POCKET all the time. But Joe doesn't have the chops that Moe has, his fills are a little lack luster and sometimes he has a hard time w/ some of the parts in the songs that he's not used to playing yet he'll usually find a way to cop them as best he can and make them work. He's not as experienced but everytime I ask him to play something in the song it only takes a couple of tries and he's got it, or can fake his way through it and doesn't forget to do it. Personally he's laid back, nice, kinda quirky funny and smart. Did I mention he's IN THE DAMN POCKET ALL THE TIME?? Usually the songs feel really good when he's playing them

So who would you choose if it was your decision to make? Moe or Joe... It's a crazy situation, I'm the "leader" of the group basically. Only because I've written about 90% of the music so far. The band is like me on this deal.. we're having a hard time making a decision but we need to now. Dragging this out will stress us out and either way we're gonna hurt someones feelings. (especially Moe's because he has no idea we've been "cheating" w/ another drummer. )

So what do you think? Moe or Joe???

"did you ever have to make up your mind
Pick up on one and leave the other behind
It's not often easy, and not often kind
Did you ever have to make up your mind?"

chris

[spkguitar]

IMHO; Joe, hands down, no question.

[Captain_Pants]

My vote is Joe... Id rather have a simple ON-beat rhythm, than a wildly ecstatic performance in its own time signature every other bar..

I have a friend who is a drummer, loves to Jam, but cant hold a beat, expects me, with my guitar, to hold the beat; really annoying...

[Phil O'Keefe]

Yup - I vote for Joe. Job 1 for a drummer is to keep the beat - solid and with good time. Flash is fine on occasion, but not all the time - it's got to be musically appropriate. And it's worthless without good time. If a drummer can't be a solid "backbone": for a band, then they're failing at job 1.

[Roy Howell]

I'de go with Joe......all the drummers I've truly respected were just 'there' in the groove, nothing too fancy unless called for. Sounds like Joe understands that.
-Roy

[stanonbass]

I feel your pain brotha. Its all about perfection and time keeping. Flashy doesnt mean anything if you cant hold it in time. Makes recording impossible. Really alot of guys dont play to a click and do it for years and develop sloppy time. You get them in the studio and its impossible to get a track out of them. So ask yourself this. What good is it if they cant make a track? None! Because if they sound like crap on a recording it will sound like crap live. Keep the guy thats in the pocket. Pocket and simplicity are the building blocks of a tight group. If the drummer sucks the group sucks. Start off small and build bigger is my motto. You have to learn the fundamentals before going crazy on fills. I know excactly what kind of drummer your dealing with and never be afraid to tell him his to0 freakin busy and his time sucks. Dont be nice! Its for his own good. As a bassist i have to have a solid drummer or it makes me sound like crap. I have a drummer i play with now that has tempo issues and im on him all the time. And to no suprise to me when we recorded him he was off the click quite a bit. But he is improving because i made him concious of it. You know he may think im a dick at times but its for his own good. I can record my bass parts without much editing when the drums are right. When the drums are in its easy to play to. Thats the ticket. The worst drummers to me are the ones that drag. I almost would prefer them rush a little then drag.

[Naagzh]

Okay, I'll be the lone voice of dissent:Moe, but with a metronome!

I am a drummer, and I've been both Joe and Moe at one time or another. Playing simple drums can get boring, especially if it's an original project and you're not getting paid. With original music, it's natural for the drummer to want to express himself. This isn't only because of the drummer's ego. Sometimes the music IS boring in spots, and the drummer subconsciously does a fill or trick because he feels he needs to maintain the audience's interest.

Now, there are certain times when simple drumming is appropriate, and there are times when it's not. But wouldn't you rather have a drummer that can do both? IMHO, it's easier to coach a drummer to be simpler than to be more complex.

So, my remedy for your situation is this: Have Moe practice like hell to a metronome. He should never, not even once, practice without the metronome for an entire year (though you'll see alot of improvement over the next two weeks). Tell him to buy a nice Dr. Beat, or Yamaha Clickstation, or Tama Rythmwatch. These have eight, sixteenth, and triplet subdivisions as well as the click.

Additionally, as I tell my drum students, practice playing slightly off the click. Have him play a simple beat such that the kick and snare and hi-hats and simple fills are all just A LITTLE BIT BEHIND THE BEAT (meaning that he hears the click just before he plays the kick and snare and fills. Okay, good. Now have him do the same thing, but this time have him play just A LITTLE BIT AHEAD OF THE BEAT (the click comes just after the kick and snare and fills. After he can do that, have him go back and try to play RIGHT ON THE CLICK! Now that he's become more acquainted with where the beat is, he'll be able to play on it much more easily!

The next step is for him to practice all his fills and chops at half-speed and work his way up 5 bpms at a time.

I have more tips for practicing with a metronome, but those are the basics. Contact me or make a new post if you're interested.

If your drummer is serious about playing music, he'll thank you at the end of it, because you'll have improved his feel, his time, and his mental preparedness for any situation.

It should be mentioned that perfect, "metronome" time is not always considered "good" time. Take Dave Grohl, for example. His drumming slows and speeds up by more than a few bpms in some songs (No One Knows, off the top of my head). Yet his time feel is great and really works the song well. But the point is this: if you know where dead-center is, you can make these adjustments consciously, with conviction, and reproduce it night after night.

So, if Moe is willing to practice to a click, I'd go with him, because it sounds like he has some good things to play. After he practices, he might be telling you all that your time stinks!

Naagzh

[tele_player]

With rare exception, the best I hope for from a drummer is that he brings drugs, booze and women. If he also forgets his cymbals, that's fine with me.

[Captain_Pants]

Playing simple drums can get boring, especially if it's an original project and you're not getting paid. With original music, it's natural for the drummer to want to express himself. This isn't only because of the drummer's ego. Sometimes the music IS boring in spots, and the drummer subconsciously does a fill or trick because he feels he needs to maintain the audience's interest.

I do see your point, but this is really true with any musician in the group, and me personally, I just couldnt have a guitarist getting bored and deciding to only play monotones because it would sound cool, or having the bass player play fifths of everything because it would be a cool effect, and at the same time the acoustic guitarist strums his guitar at double speed to regain audience affection...

Keep it simple, keep it clean, and build from there. Like they say, cant teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah, maybe after a year or so, Moe will be able to play to a Metronome, but you got a guy that can do that now, and theres much better chance of success of building on a solid foundation than moving an existing structure(skill) to a better location(the process of removing bad habits, as opposed to expanding your knowledge.)

=-Ben

[Joz]

I've been in the same situation before. Seems that you like Moes personality better, and Joes playing better, and thats a though one. I've gotten Joes before, and the band suffered morally, and gotten Moes and the band suffered musically. But then again you've only had to practices with Moe. And yes in the poket is REALLY important, specially towards getting signed, believe me A&Rs do nitice good drummers.
If the drummer is bored then it's not his kind of music.

Joz