CPTK to PT11HD Pricing Proposal for Tony Carridi and Tom Graham

[nigelpry]

Bill,

My first post in this thread was mainly a response to the OP, and contained one line for you, a humorous comment about the predictability of your input .... you can tell it's intended as humour by the " ;-) " at the end of that line.

I accept it could also be perceived as a bit of a veiled cheap shot, and for that I apologise.

My second post in this thread to mention you was also, IMO, mostly an attempt to be humorous. It wasn't aimed at you, but was a light-hearted response to a subsequent post by someone else. That much is clear if you read my post in context of what went before it.

But of course there was a bit of a sting in the tail behind it too. And as that has clearly upset you, then of course I apologise for that too. I am all for everyone having a voice, I've said that in a number of posts in different threads over the years.

I suppose I just find it a little odd that someone would choose to take the time to comment, when the situation they are joining in the discussion about is not something they have a direct stake in, and they comment in a way that is contrary to the flow of discussion, and emerging consensus, involving people who do have a direct stake in the outcome.

In saying that, of course, I've been assuming, from the info contained in your profile, that you are a HD owner/user and do not have CPTK yourself. From your more recent post in this thread, it appears you are a 003 +PT9 user without CPTK. I apologise for misunderstanding, but that was an honest mistake.

While I of course accept your right to comment, you have also to accept that people will wonder what the motives are for your comments. If you don't have CPTK it is too late to get it, if you have HD it's not an issue for you. I struggle to see why you would want to comment with your views on what is an appropriate solution to the issue when, for you, there is no issue at all.

When all the anger was voiced regarding the PT9HD to PT10HD upgrade pricing, I had views on the subject, but I wouldn't have entered the fray to voice my views, because I'm not a HD owner/user, so my views would have been irrelevant. If I had posted what I thought, and if it went against the grain of what most people directly involved were saying, I wouldn't have been surprised if people weren't terribly happy about it.

I'm not going to dignify your derogatory comments about my reading skills with a reply, except to say that you seem to be far more adept and direct at hurling personal insults than I. People in glass houses ... etc seems an appropriate proverb here.

And, unless the Atlantic divide has simply resulted in me totally misunderstanding your sense of humour (and if I have misunderstood you then, again, I apologise), I have to say that many of your one-liners seems deliberately designed to provoke a reaction. Are you then surprised, offended and upset when people do react?

And as for childish behaviour ... well for the most part my contributions to any thread in the DUC forums are well intentioned, and intended to be informative and helpful. Feel free to have a look at my posts away from this thread and the PT11 announcement timeline.

In fact have a look at my post a couple of days ago in the tips and tricks section in which I helped someone to learn how to use the varispeed version of elastic audio to achieve what they wanted to do. That's the way I like to operate in the DUC forums.

And don't forget, as you are a 003 owner, that it was me who troubleshooted, diagnosed, identified and posted up the solution to the problem when PT9 came out that lead to the installer removing part of the 003 driver set on Macs, which eventually lead to Avid providing the little fix app to reinstall the missing bits. I described in detail both the problem and the solution, a manual fix. Digidesign released the fix app several months later. My work was acknowledged in that thread by DigiTechSupport.

Finally, I did question the motives of several moderators, for the possibly misleading, possibly ill-considered and possibly uninformed comments made in the early days of the CPTK thread. Maybe, residually, that experience left me tuned in to querying the motives behind some posted comments by others, including yourself. Again, if I have misunderstood you, my apologies.

However, I've also been heartened by the people who have commented in the threads and/or PM'ed me, to thank me for my contributions.

[nigelpry]

CPTK ...

Your second post makes an interesting read, that's for sure. I don't get some of your rationalising, I must admit.

You think upgrading from PT9 to PT11 should be the same as from PT10? Increasing the upgrade cost the older the version you are upgrading from seems reasonable to me. Actually, I view it as decreasing the upgrade cost the newer your existing version is.

Your car analogy actually demonstrates this point well. The starting point is buying the product new. That should cost the most. Upgrades (trade ins) should be cheaper, and how much you pay to trade in should be based on how recent your existing model is (ignoring the complexities of mileage and condition). You wouldn't expect a 10 year old Mondeo to have the same trade in value as a 2 year old, would you?

Being able to use CPTK over different versions is how it was sold. We can debate whether that is a courtesy or a right, personally I don't think either word quite fits the mark. But what I can say is that it was sold as a version independent feature unlocker. It was never tied to a specific version.

Had Avid pre-announced its intention to withdraw CPTK, in the same way it announced the sacking of TDM and RTAS, then the situation would have been very different. Yes people would have been dismayed, and would have made concerted efforts to persuade Avid to change its mind. Maybe Avid would have responded to that by reducing the upgrade cost, similarly to what they did after the outcry about PT9HD to PT10HD upgrade costs as initially announced.

Did you read the main thread? I asked, but you didn't reply.

In it you'll see discussion on the many reasons why withdrawing CPTK without any prior warning, coupled with the proposed upgrade route pricing, is unacceptable ... not least because, without warning, people and organisations have no opportunity to budget in those upgrade costs.

Yes, these 'people' can stay at PT10 if they want, as some have suggested in the main thread, but IMO it isn't a great marketing strategy for a new model, if too many people decide they can't afford to upgrade. There is always the danger that, stuck with the old model, they might survey the market place and decide to upgrade to something else that has many of the same features, but costs less, and which they can afford now.

Again, read the main thread. Some of the stuff in there about the impact on educational establishments and what it could mean for Pro Tools' future is very serious. You say we're not getting the big picture? And aren't thinking about Avid's long term future and profitability. That we're putting our heads in the sand and are not working together to come up with a solution?

I'm sorry, but that's an insult to the many people who have spent many hours in this forum debating and putting forward views, and developing a set of constructively arrived at options, for Avid to consider as a way forward. Had that main thread not been so active in describing the problems with Avid's announcement, and in developing its ideas on options going forward, I doubt Avid would be rethinking its plans at this moment.

You also seem to have missed, in the main thread, Avid's official response to the hare that was set running about needing HD hardware to subsequently upgrade from PT11HD to PT12HD, having traded in CPTK to get PT11HD. Avid has confirmed that it does not intend, and has not implied, any such thing.

This is one of the problems of starting a new thread on the same subject. People may come to this thread having not read the other thread, and then end up asking the same questions, raising the same doubts, and arguing the same points, that have already been discussed at length and in many cases been resolved already.

That is why I believe it to be ill-concieved, however well-intentioned, to create another thread on the same subject. I have absolutely no problem with you airing your views. I do reserve the right to disagree with them though, and to say so.

The big difference between my response to your original post and your subsequent post, is that I started by saying I disagree with your viewpoint, and then set about explaining why I disagree.

You, on the other hand, responded with some half-baked theories, some mis-information, and a largely incoherent rant, while having the audacity to accuse the rest of us of having our heads in the sand and failing to see the big picture, when you haven't even done us the courtesy of reading the views we've already posted on the subject, and which I suggested you have a look at.

You certainly know how to win friends and influence people, that's for sure ;-)

And by the way, I, and no doubt many others here, 'got' lumcas's intentional pun. I found it quite humorous. If you seriously don't get it ... come back and tell us ... and we'll happily explain it to you.

[Righty27]

Originally Posted by nigelpry

And by the way, I, and no doubt many others here, 'got' lumcas's intentional pun. I found it quite humorous. If you seriously don't get it ... come back and tell us ... and we'll happily explain it to you.

... or you could just send CPTK a PM (see what I did there?!) :)

[CPTK]

Originally Posted by conleec

Given the huge amount of ill will generated by this, I think it's in their best interests to simply grant the $599 upgrade as if from HD to HD (thus locking all users into a simplified and more costly HD upgrade path in the future).

But further, I seriously question the wisdom of excluding future potential purchasers of HD software who have no need or desire to purchase HD hardware. To me it seems like a losing proposition, but perhaps I'm wrong on that.

Chris

Yeah, I couldn't agree more! It would be perfectly fine with me if Avid were willing to make the crossgrade $599, though I suspect there's more to the original announcement than meets the eye.

If Avid has no plans to allow CPTK holders an upgrade path beyond 11HD, then they should especially make the one-time crossgrade $599 across the board. I don't think that the original $999 upgrade announcement was some arbitrary number though. I think Avid was trying to retroactively collect on past HD version updates that were essentially being financed by hardware licensees. Without having to single any particular licensee, I figure they thought it less obvious to assign the entire $999 crossgrade burden to entire CPTK community as a whole. As you can imagine, it’s a lot more difficult to ask people to pay up after the fact. Since they didn’t make any effort to charge an upgrade cost to CPTK owners over the years, it's really nobody’s fault but their own for doing it that way. I'm sure that if we were accustomed to some CPTK upgrade cost over the years then it would've been a non-issue today. For the sake of goodwill though, Avid should just eat those costs and move on, but given that they are setting aside weeks to figure this out is somewhat disconcerting.

For myself, I really don't mind paying more than another CPTK purchaser if it meant the survival of the CPTK license going forward or some guaranteed path to future HD software upgrades. My original pricing proposal was a suggestion to Avid that we *could* work together with them to make the original CPTK licensing framework viable for tomorrow. However, after seeing how impulsive some people can be with their response on here, it’s no wonder to me why Avid chose a policy of not sharing the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth with us. My foremost concern, much like you, is that Avid is leaning toward the 11HD as being the last upgrade point for us CPTK holders. I know that some want to ignore this, cross their fingers, and hope for the best a year from now, but in my honest opinion (or ‘IMHO’ for you kids out there), I think it’s best to broach the subject as much as possible with Avid so they work us into their future plans, and not just sweep us aside now. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure if Avid cares too much for a middle-of-the-road offering that’s been serving our particular needs the best so far.

Another thought would be to offer a one-time upgrade to PT11HD to all CPTK holders for $599. Alternatively, for $400 more (or $999 total) CPTK holders would receive a non-transferable, hardware equivalent registration in their accounts and the same software upgrade rights as hardware HD owners. The "hardware registration" would be surrendered to Avid upon transfer of the license to a third party. Also, at the end of the PT11HD lifecycle those CPTK holders that opted for the $599 crossgrade to 11HD would receive a rebate for purchase of HD hardware, and that would subsequently be their entry point back into HD software upgrades.

As much as I’d like to indulge those who’d like to take this thread off-topic, I think that it is in their best interest as well to stick to the issue of the CPTK crossgrade pricing as close as possible -- lest they want another surprise announcement, witch hunt, barn burning and what have you on the forums two weeks from now (or perhaps on some automatic, fortnightly basis.) Trying to ignore this pricing issue or to silence others from discussing it will undoubtedly be to your own detriment. At some point in the near future you will ultimately have no voice on the matter because it has become too late to discuss the issue with Avid at all. It is best to express your pricing “votes” here and now, and to avoid off-topic issues (like in that 1000+ thread) so Avid will have a clearer understanding of why their pricing decisions are being met with such protest.

[louieshowers]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

Pretty reasonable proposals to me...

Nothing about this is reasonable. Now, Reaper...that seems like a reasonable alternative.

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

Just rockin'...what more is there?

JAZZ...(II-V-I progressions) And other DAWS.

[nigelpry]

CPTK ...

Thanks for posting your views ...

I would query this though ....

1) Why do you insist on continuing to peddle the story that PT11HD might be the last upgrade for CPTK owners, and that to get to PT12HD you will need hardware? And then go on to propose a pricing strategy to solve that problem?

Avid has already responded officially on that issue and confirmed that it has no intention of, and did not intend to imply that, it was going to close of future upgrades. If you trade in your CPTK to PT11HD your will be able to subsequently upgrade to PT12HD and beyond.

The only question that still remains to be clarified in this respect is what happens if you haven't done the CPTK to HD upgrade by the time PT12 comes out. There is a suggestion that Avid's 'one-off' and 'once in a lifetime' comments might be hinting that you have to do the upgrade while PT11 is the actively for sale version. No doubt that question will be clarified in due course.

2) Your thoughts on some alternative pricing options would be interesting, if read in splendid isolation, but I have to say that they add nothing to the various options already fully discussed in the main thread.

The same pricing strategy ideas have already been voiced over there. Do you think that, somehow, by voicing your views in a different thread, Avid is going to give them more credence?

Avid are only a week or so away from giving us their considered response to the issues raised in the main thread, and the idea and options discussed therein.

Pease feel free to posts any new ideas, we are all interested to hear a different perspective.

But you say this thread should be kept on topic, and restricted to ideas on pricing strategies .... do you still not realise that the issue of pricing has already been discussed at length in the main thread. My question about whether you have, in fact, even read the main thread was asked precisely because some of things you are saying here have already been debated and discussed there.

As pricing strategy ideas in essence the same as yours have already discussed in greater detail and with more clarity, it just seems a bit pointless to discuss them again here.

That's why this thread is tending to go off topic ... because there has been nothing new 'on topic' said here.

[ChazC]

Originally Posted by nigelpry

That's why this thread is tending to go off topic ... because there has been nothing new 'on topic' said here.

Indeed. In fact it's obvious CPTK hasn't even read all of the main thread otherwise he'd know I proposed the hardware equivalent serial number idea days ago.

[Bob Olhsson]

Didn't HD users pay $999 upgrading from 9 to 10 while CPTK users got off only paying $300?

[WKG]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Didn't HD users pay $999 upgrading from 9 to 10 while CPTK users got off only paying $300?

Yup. That was quite a debacle as well.

I suppose one big difference though is that CPTK will not allow users to run PT as an HD/HDX system with the hardware, It just unlocks some software features.

I am ok with surrendering my CPTK iLok asset and paying the current HD upgrade fee of $599 and HD fees going forward it that is what they decide on this. I'd really rather stay with PT if possible.

[Kasper]

Originally Posted by Bill Denton

...

Now, on to another point...

If you mention me or any of my posts in an insulting or disparaging manner, I will go back and report every post in which you have done so, which will quite probably cost you your voice here.

You are more than welcome to disagree with me, but the childish behavior you've exhibited stops now...

Yeah, if you don't stop being so childish, I'll "tell on you!"

Humor is often hard to discern on the interwebs, so settle down, cowboy.



kasper