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  #21  
Old 12-10-2016, 07:40 AM
ChuckS ChuckS is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

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Originally Posted by Tim Ripley View Post
Yes. How do I do that? (Make Avid log it as a bug...)
You can open a support case with Avid and/or make an entry in Ideascale here:
http://protools.ideascale.com/

There might be a better shot if they can duplicate it with a support case, which should be easy at a 1024 buffer if they have any outboard gear to test with. Of course they might just say that it is by design and if so, get the explanation why.
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  #22  
Old 12-10-2016, 11:00 AM
del cosmos del cosmos is online now
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Default Midi through delay with hardware synths

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Originally Posted by Tim Ripley View Post
Setting the buffer to 32 when you choose the audio interface is an important detail.



Pro Tools seems to assign that same buffer setting to the midi-thru data when the file is opened. After that, it has no effect on the midi thru data timing.



More discoveries:



If you change the buffer to 32 samples and always open your projects with it set that way, you won't have to do the 'switch-audio-to-internal-and-back-to-your-preferred-interface' step when you open it up - even if you quit Pro Tools. PT seems to set the midi thru delay from the audio buffer setting that is current when the file is opened. Big buffer = big delay. Once the file opens, you can change the buffer to your preferred setting and it will not affect the midi thru timing. These are my findings and could be unique to my system. I just wanted to document things here so that they might help someone in the future.

Then I ask... who are the beta testers?
Oh... got it, WE are beta testers, but we have to pay for it.

Incredible that Avid let this happen through so many updates, I insist... they don't care about music production.

12.7 is supposed to be aimed at music creators because it comes with more wav loops! Wow THANK YOU Avid!

But where is ARA implementation?, where is the stability for using Virtual Instruments?, where is the tight midi implementation that we Musicians really need? Why you don't fix all these ancient midi bugs?

We don't need collaboration (broken btw), we don't need wav loops, we need a tight software like your competition, Cubase 9 came out with new features over a solid and stable piece of software.


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  #23  
Old 12-11-2016, 05:52 PM
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Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Yeah... The only thing I can conclude from my testing is that this is what I have to do to get rid of the MIDI-thru delay with my MOTU Midi Timepiece AV USB when using Pro Tools. Other midi interfaces might not have this problem but, since the problem was inside Pro Tools, I suspect that they do. People just put up with it because they don't know it can be MUCH better. They get used to latency because they deal with it all the time with VI's.

I lived through the 80's. I know what midi can do. There should be very very little latency when playing live synths via midi, through ProTools or any DAW - no matter where the audio buffer is set. For me, this is true of every piece of software I have used except Pro Tools.

At least I know the workaround. If they fix it in the future, then so much the better, but I'm not holding my breath. Us live-hardware-synth-guys are a dying breed and to cater to such a small part of the market is probably not a good business decision in their eyes. In trolling the 'net for tidbits to help me figure this out, it seems pretty widespread that a lot of people would prefer to do midi-heavy projects in DAWs other that Pro Tools. I know I do.
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  #24  
Old 12-11-2016, 06:01 PM
del cosmos del cosmos is online now
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ripley View Post
Yeah... The only thing I can conclude from my testing is that this is what I have to do to get rid of the MIDI-thru delay with my MOTU Midi Timepiece AV USB when using Pro Tools. Other midi interfaces might not have this problem but, since the problem was inside Pro Tools, I suspect that they do. People just put up with it because they don't know it can be MUCH better. They get used to latency because they deal with it all the time with VI's.



I lived through the 80's. I know what midi can do. There should be very very little latency when playing live synths via midi, through ProTools or any DAW - no matter where the audio buffer is set. For me, this is true of every piece of software I have used except Pro Tools.



At least I know the workaround. If they fix it in the future, then so much the better, but I'm not holding my breath. Us live-hardware-synth-guys are a dying breed and to cater to such a small part of the market is probably not a good business decision in their eyes. In trolling the 'net for tidbits to help me figure this out, it seems pretty widespread that a lot of people would prefer to do midi-heavy projects in DAWs other that Pro Tools. I know I do.

Thats the only thing I really miss about Digital Performer, I miss the timing of their midi, the patch lists of most hardware synths, etc, etc.

Midi with hardware Synths its a Joke in Protools, even with your "workaround" if you have a heavy plug in inserted on your master buss you would get an out of sync midi playback.


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  #25  
Old 12-11-2016, 09:22 PM
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Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

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Originally Posted by del cosmos View Post
Thats the only thing I really miss about Digital Performer, I miss the timing of their midi, the patch lists of most hardware synths, etc, etc.

Midi with hardware Synths its a Joke in Protools, even with your "workaround" if you have a heavy plug in inserted on your master buss you would get an out of sync midi playback.


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Hmmm... I don't think I've experienced delay on the playback side of things with external synths because I monitor them live from the console. When I'm ready, I record them into Pro Tools.

I'm not monitoring them IN pro tools until they are recorded as audio. I don't want to mess around with monitoring them in PT. That's why I've got this giant console! I do agree with you about DP though. It's my go-to for midi projects. Been using DP since 1986. It's my native language.
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Mac Pro (Late 2013)
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Sierra 10.13.2, Pro Tools 18.1.0.241, EuControl 18.3.0.244
Lots of WAVES Plugins, Avid Artist Mix and Control
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MOTU MTP AV (USB), a bunch of hardware synths, mic preamps, & outboard FX
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  #26  
Old 12-11-2016, 10:54 PM
del cosmos del cosmos is online now
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Default Midi through delay with hardware synths

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Originally Posted by Tim Ripley View Post
Hmmm... I don't think I've experienced delay on the playback side of things with external synths because I monitor them live from the console. When I'm ready, I record them into Pro Tools.



I'm not monitoring them IN pro tools until they are recorded as audio. I don't want to mess around with monitoring them in PT. That's why I've got this giant console! I do agree with you about DP though. It's my go-to for midi projects. Been using DP since 1986. It's my native language.

Then I'm doing something wrong because I use a giant console for my hardware synths too, and if I have heavy plug ins on the master buss of protools my hardware synths playback earlier and I have to adjust manually the midi track offset preference. I guess DP, Logic, Cubase adjust this parameter against audio latency automatically.


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Last edited by del cosmos; 12-11-2016 at 11:09 PM.
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  #27  
Old 12-12-2016, 05:24 AM
musicman691 musicman691 is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by del cosmos View Post
Thats the only thing I really miss about Digital Performer, I miss the timing of their midi, the patch lists of most hardware synths, etc, etc.

Midi with hardware Synths its a Joke in Protools, even with your "workaround" if you have a heavy plug in inserted on your master buss you would get an out of sync midi playback.


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I miss it as well if/when I have to go back to old PT sessions. I went back to DP when they announced purchasers of DP8 would get the free update to DP9 and it truly was a revelation of how good MIDI can be. Now on DP9.02 because of the foibles in DP9.12 and all my MIDI work is done there. Actually all my new work is in DP.

And yes I too monitor my hardware synths through a console.
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  #28  
Old 12-18-2016, 10:03 PM
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Tim Ripley Tim Ripley is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
You can open a support case with Avid and/or make an entry in Ideascale here:
http://protools.ideascale.com/

There might be a better shot if they can duplicate it with a support case, which should be easy at a 1024 buffer if they have any outboard gear to test with. Of course they might just say that it is by design and if so, get the explanation why.
Posted to Ideascale. Why in the world would you ever want to delay the MIDI-thru data to a hardware synth?

The bug is that the delay stays where the buffer is set when the file is opened and does not change when the buffer setting is changed after that. If you open it with a big buffer setting, you'll get a big midi-thru delay. The only way to get an acceptable amount of latency is to open the file with the buffer set as low as possible. Once the file is open, the buffer can be set to whatever is preferred and the midi thru data is not affected - no matter where you set it.
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Timothy Ripley
Composer, engineer, musician

Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Dual 4Tb Thunderbolt G Drives
Acer B326HUL 32" 2560 X 1440, VIZIO video monitor
Sierra 10.13.2, Pro Tools 18.1.0.241, EuControl 18.3.0.244
Lots of WAVES Plugins, Avid Artist Mix and Control
Digital Performer 9.51, MOTU 1248 (Thunderbolt), MOTU 2408 MkII (x2)
MOTU MTP AV (USB), a bunch of hardware synths, mic preamps, & outboard FX
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  #29  
Old 10-17-2019, 09:14 AM
XJENSEN XJENSEN is offline
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Default Re: Midi through delay with hardware synths

Confirmed, very annoying bug, still present in 2019.6...
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