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  #301  
Old 04-18-2002, 12:34 AM
DaveCarlock DaveCarlock is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

This is worth posting here as well:

Tonight: Mixerman in live chat on this issue. Supposedly the Board Of Directors Of the DUC are involved in this somehow.

Thanks to Haze for the heads-up.

--DC

Here's the thread about it.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit/viewtopic.php?t=1174

And the link for the chat.

http://chat.prosoundweb.com
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  #302  
Old 04-18-2002, 12:41 AM
Roy Finch Roy Finch is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

Post Number 300!!!

...just had to do that : ) [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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  #303  
Old 04-18-2002, 12:50 AM
DaveCarlock DaveCarlock is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

<<Uh, actually, I think we're all waiting to hear of the second test that he's about to do this Friday. I know I am.>>

Sorry to bring bad news, but we can't do the test this week. I'm going to talk with Mixerman about next Monday. I'll keep you all informed on progress.

Thanks for your comments, Bobby Peru. I'm with you.

DC
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  #304  
Old 04-18-2002, 01:33 AM
Mark Williams Mark Williams is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

Sorry, but what the crap is Lee Blaske talking about?

Krizman never "confessed" that he "made those numbers up." Those exact numbers [down 6dB @ 50Hz] have been fairly well published. I thought they were published here, but that may have been 300 posts ago, so who can really remember at this point? At any rate, I know these exact figures were discussed over at PSW. Rick didn't make them up.

I'm not saying whether this test is repeatable yet--who knows? But I for one look forward to hearing more RESULTS. Maybe I'm crazy or something, but that's what I want.

I seriously do want to thank everyone for this "discussion." And I mean everyone--I mean no disrespect to anyone on either "side" of this "argument."

The funny thing is that it's not even totally clear what we're arguing about. All I know is what Mulder says-- the truth is out there. Heck, Mulder's not even around anymore...

I greatly respect Mixerman's ears and opinions, and I also work on projects where we transfer Studer 2" into ProTools (not HD), so I thank him publicly for continuing his research into this topic. He is under no obligation to do so, and yet he continues.
Thanks, Mixerman.
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  #305  
Old 04-18-2002, 07:02 AM
loudist loudist is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

Quote:
I think those of us who frequent this forum have grown weary trying to explain to our analog friends that AES/EBU transfers don't alter the sound, and that audio files are not mangled when they're downloaded from the internet.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your crowing is disingenous.
As usual LB, you distort reality to suit your childish 'is not!!' position.
What was in question is the master clock, there are mixed replies on that, and the invalidity of evaluating files using one of the pieces of hardware in the A/B test.
There were no claims on 'internet mangleing'.
Sheesh! talk about signal to noise.
As for the -5db @50, I believe it was never established as such, it was stated as it was percieved like it was down -5 @50.
You seem to unfairly choose your facts from fiction.
This makes having a real discussion with you impossible.
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  #306  
Old 04-18-2002, 10:01 AM
Lee Blaske Lee Blaske is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

Loudist wrote:

Quote:
Your crowing is disingenous.
As usual LB, you distort reality to suit your childish 'is not!!' position.
What was in question is the master clock, there are mixed replies on that, and the invalidity of evaluating files using one of the pieces of hardware in the A/B test.
There were no claims on 'internet mangleing'.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh no? You had better re-read Mixerman's post.

Mixerman wrote:

Quote:
considering that you guys are all listening to it through PRO TOOLS, an inherently flawed system and certainly a system that should be completely taken out of the equation; downloaded from the internet a copy of a copy, again and sgain mucking up the results;
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems clear to me that Mixerman is asserting that downloading and transferring files through the internet is mucking up the results. That just proves that he has a different reality than those of us using the internet for file transfers on a daily basis. If downloading and transferring files through the internet changed the data, files and software would simply not work. This is not the reality that I experience.

Regarding the master clock, I don't recall that being an issue at all as far as Brad's tests were concerned. Many people listened to Brad's test with converters clocked by different master clocks (I myself use a Lucid). Others listened to the test with different converters. I believe it was Steve Devino that explained to you how enormous the clocking errors would have to have been to have fouled up the basic AES/EBU capture into PT from DAT in Brad Cobb's test.


Quote:
You seem to unfairly choose your facts from fiction.
This makes having a real discussion with you impossible.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, discussion with you is not that easy, either. People on this forum have been very patient with you, trying to explain the intricacies of AES/EBU transfers, etc.

Sadly, you've been very dishonest with us, Loudist. A number of participants have been paying attention to your posts because you mislead us into thinking that your knowledge and understanding of these issues was much greater than it is.

You put a great deal of technical information into one of your earlier posts, passed off as if it had been written by you. In actuality, it was something you plagiarized from someone else without giving credit to the person who wrote the explanation.

I know about this, because when I stopped in to read Mixerman's forum several days ago, I read a post from you where you were gloating about what you had done. This is highly dishonest behaviour in a professional forum. It's important to credit your sources.

Lee Blaske
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  #307  
Old 04-18-2002, 10:15 AM
Lee Blaske Lee Blaske is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

Mark Williams wrote:

Quote:
Sorry, but what the crap is Lee Blaske talking about?
Krizman never "confessed" that he "made those numbers up." Those exact numbers [down 6dB @ 50Hz] have been fairly well published. I thought they were published here, but that may have been 300 posts ago, so who can really remember at this point? At any rate, I know these exact figures were discussed over at PSW. Rick didn't make them up.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mark,

Could you point us to where MM cited this? Also, if this was from MM, I'd really like to know how he made the measurement, and what test equipment was used.

As far as this -6db down at 50 hz measurement of the 192 goes on THIS forum, it first showed up in this post from Rick Krizman (Rick is the one who initiated this thread):

Quote:
It does seem as if Mixerman did everything right and was using the system the way people would like to use it. Has anyone else here transferred from tape and then mixed direct-out out through a console? Someone from Digi might want to try it, (before the product recall gets too large) It would take a huge PR compaign to convince us that we'd be better off with 6db less information below 50 hz.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I pressed Rick about confirming or denying whether this figure was accurate, where it came from, and how it was derived, he wrote:

Quote:
Hey Lee, maybe I just made the whole thing up !
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, just take this into consideration when you think about the validity of these claims. I think many of us are searching for truth, but we're being lead on a wild goose chase by a group of mischievous individuals with a very strong anti-Digi bias.

BTW, here, again, for those that have joined this thread late is the link to the post that Mixerman cites as the "detailed" explanation of his test:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit/viewtop ic.php?t=931

In that description, MM does not mention the -6db @ 50 hz figure, and there is also no mention of any test equipment or analysis software being used.

Until I hear otherwise, I'm going under the assumption that the specific -6 db @ 50 hz *measurement* is pure fiction. At MM's actual test, it's my understanding that only golden ears were used.

Lee Blaske
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  #308  
Old 04-18-2002, 11:08 AM
Mixerman Mixerman is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Blaske:

Until I hear otherwise, I'm going under the assumption that the -6 db @ 50 hz measurement is pure fiction.

Lee Blaske[/QB]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps I can shed some light on this. Here is my initial characterization.

"Both the 96k mix and the 48k mix were lacking in the low end. After analyzing it for a while, I finally realized that it was as if someone chopped off the bottom octave of the low end. The subs were lopped off. When I described it this way, the others agreed that this was a very accurate description of the phenomenon that was going on." -Mixerman

Here is a characterization that I made a few days later.

"I played the comparison DAT for the PT tech, and he heard the difference instantly. I think "Woah" was the quote. After he said that I asked him which one was 2". He picked right.
BTW, I'd say it's more in the order of a 6db or more drop in the information below 50hz."

The above is an estimation. Considering I have taken no measurements other than my ears, the only thing that I CAN do is estimate. I'm pretty confident in that estimation because I deal with db values on a daily basis. With most automation systems, I am able to bring instruments up and down by very specific values. Through the years of doing this, I've become quite adept at making estimations such as this.

It wasn't my intention to muddy the waters with specific db values as-if I measured. I stated on many occasions that I did not use an analyzer to measure the damage. It was merely intended to provide a 'picture' in peoples minds as to what the results were.

When a problem with a piece of gear is as egregious as this one was, I don't need test equipment. Something is wrong. I need a scope to tell me that it doesn't sound the same? If the problem was very subtle, again, I wouldn't need test equipment, because the problem would then be irrelevant to me.

I do listening tests by ear because that's all that matters. What we hear. It's up to others to determine whether and how it can be fixed through test equipment.

Always nice to read your posts, Lee. Hope this cleared things up.

Mixerman
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  #309  
Old 04-18-2002, 01:04 PM
loudist loudist is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

Very good.

Now did you read the part about 'open their minds a bit?'

If you had read the lifted quote, it would have told you that there can be digital problems that can also cause what was being perceived.

The only way to get to the bottom of all of this rhetoric is for MM to replicate the conditions of his test and if it is consistent with the previous result, then analyze the paths, components, change things one at a time to see if the problem would go away. I would be very interested in knowing what to avoid in all of this, including how not to set up a flawed A/B test, ie: pilot error.
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  #310  
Old 04-18-2002, 01:08 PM
lagasus lagasus is offline
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Default Re: HD 192 bass-lite? Impedance mismatch?

Quote:
Originally posted by loudist:

The only way to get to the bottom of all of this rhetoric is for MM to replicate the conditions of his test and if it is consistent with the previous result, then analyze the paths, components, change things one at a time to see if the problem would go away. I would be very interested in knowing what to avoid in all of this, including how not to set up a flawed A/B test, ie: pilot error.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed.
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