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  #11  
Old 08-16-2011, 08:36 AM
lexaudio lexaudio is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

WEll it could be one of two things.

The "mix" without any volume moves.

OR what they are after is a CD "style" mix of all the music.
I've had requests for DAT tapes back in the day of just the music.

This, and what I assume they really want, is up to the music editor or composer to deliver.

Here is what you can ask. If they want an "undipped" Music stem from the final mix, you can charge them additionally for stage time to re run the music mix.
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  #12  
Old 08-17-2011, 08:05 AM
wheresmyfroggy wheresmyfroggy is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

There are some distributors that ask for Music and FX stems UNDIPPED against VO AND dialogue. It is a right royal pain in the proverbial to say the least...

If you know in advance, then do a flat music/fx mix BEFORE adding dialouge, and dip the Music/FX stems as you go. Then finish with a DM+E dip fader against the VO for the final mix. Then when the mix is complete, send the Music/FX PRE fader for the 'undipped' stems and POST fader if you also require 'dipped'

If you find out too late, then laboriously work through a separate 'Undip' copy of the Master session with the dial off, keeping music and fx at a uniform level.
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  #13  
Old 08-17-2011, 12:23 PM
soundsculpter soundsculpter is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

I've never created an international mix from an undipped M&E stem, but I find myself thinking it should be more appropriately called unramped. Other than montage sequences, bump-ins and outs, and credit rolls where the music is primary, "mix level" for the music stem is 90% where it sits under the VO & dialogue with a few ramps to fill gaps. Spec sheet says M&E should be at "mix level" without dips. Isn't mix level where the majority of it sits in the mix?

Anyone agree?
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  #14  
Old 08-17-2011, 02:53 PM
lexaudio lexaudio is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundsculpter View Post
I've never created an international mix from an undipped M&E stem, but I find myself thinking it should be more appropriately called unramped. Other than montage sequences, bump-ins and outs, and credit rolls where the music is primary, "mix level" for the music stem is 90% where it sits under the VO & dialogue with a few ramps to fill gaps. Spec sheet says M&E should be at "mix level" without dips. Isn't mix level where the majority of it sits in the mix?

Anyone agree?
Yep. I think in some cases if asked it is because they want to remix the music to a new VO track.
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  #15  
Old 08-18-2011, 06:50 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

I still maintain that the only reason for an undipped music stem stems (bad alliteration) from the old days before file based work flows, when the production music was stuck inside a proprietary system like the AMS Audiofile - and the promo producers wanted access to it at approximately the right level, rather than CD level - so they could cut in their promos in their avid. A dat of the show music undipped was a common EXTRA requirement.

But otherwise music stems should form the basis for making up the DME, and therefore MUST be dipped under sync sound, but NOT dipped under VO.

We all know that delivery requirements are often cut and pasted by a hotchpotch of un-qualified people (who probably come from the same recruitment agencies that hire the QC guys! - smirk ) who do not understand what they are asking for.

It is your job in audio to ask the right questions and make them understand the ramifications of their "wisdom". We are all skilled at giving producers what they want in a mix, often not what they ask for... let's extend that to international deliverables?

happy mixing
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Mike Aiton BSc (hons)
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Last edited by MIKEROPHONICS; 08-18-2011 at 06:52 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #16  
Old 08-18-2011, 08:35 AM
soundsculpter soundsculpter is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

On that note, Mike, I have a question for you since you do have the experience in creating international versions from pre-mixed stems. Many of the shows I'm working on have little or no vo. Interviews and cheated wild lines are used like vo. What is actually revoiced for the international version when it's all sync dialogue or cheated sync dlg? Thank God they accept stems on DVD finally. I haven't had to lock to any kind of deck for years now.
I also struggle with these shows because dialogue leads in under interview or trails out under interview, so they both share the same space and stem. The only way I know to handle this is to drop the overlap to the nats track which confuses the ability to have an undipped nats stem.
Does anyone else run into this issue with programming that isn't vo intensive documentary?
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  #17  
Old 08-18-2011, 09:12 AM
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MIKEROPHONICS MIKEROPHONICS is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

ooh - good question.

You open up the difference between what is a doc DME and a drama DME. The lines get blurred with dramatised docs sometimes.

Also consider which country it is going to be sold to. Germany has a very different style of mixing to other euro countries. Holland is fine with subtitles, France is NOT!

For docs, cheapest and most common is a full DME, with all but the VO. Undipped relative to VO. And that is it. Foreign territories will translate over the top of your M&E mix for the sync sections.

Next scale up is to make stems for the DME. Stems should make up the DME. and dig a foreign mixer out of any probs and allow a better mix.

AETN tend to deliver for foreign territories:
version 1)

A1 mono dialogue mix
A2 Mono USA full mix for reference
A3 Stereo M&E L (undipped relative to sync)
A4 Stereo M&E R (undipped relative to sync)


or sometimes where international sales have been an afterthought
version 2)

A1 Stereo USA mix L
A2 Stereo USA mix R
A3 Stereo DM&E L (dipped relative to sync)
A4 Stereo DM&E R (dipped relative to sync)

The problems occur in four ways:

1) American TV as a style has much less space in it than UK TV i.e dialogue is often butt edited together or has in and out points on large music crescendos

2) INcomplete splits - i.e sync dialogue being on USA mix only and not on dial stem just down to bad bussing and template design.

3) A miscomprehension of a mono dialogue stem - where the VO has been included as well - often very tightly edited to the sync - or even overlapping (tsk tsk)

4) The concept of M&E vs DME gets mixed up. If you have no clean dial stem, then you need a DME, if you have a dial stem then an M&E is great. M&E and american mix is not much help to man nor beast.

5) The DME or M&E is dipped relative to the US VO - european languages are considerably longer on average (have you ever seen the german for lawnmower?)

With scenario 1, when the "foreign" mix (i.e a new UK mix) is made, a new DM&E gets made simultaneously (often needing a reverse two way dip), which can get passed on to other european territories.

I need to crack on with work, more later hopefully..)
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Mike Aiton BSc (hons)
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  #18  
Old 08-18-2011, 10:16 AM
soundsculpter soundsculpter is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Thanks for your input, Mike. You hit the nail on the head as far as lack of breathing room, at least on the shows I'm mixing. Everything is wall to wall with a lot of overlap. As I mentioned before, most of my volume automation is ramping the head and tail of each track, and then just minor adjustments for the dynamic changes within the song.
I've got to be honest, and this may get scoffed at, but I don't premix the fx and music and then ride the stem for dips under dialogue. I level dialogue, ride the music, and then make a pass for nats and fx. Almost always, my nats and fx tracks are just clip-gained and aren't "dipped" within the region. Very seldom in the programming I'm mixing is it necessary to do so.
I then create the undipped M&E by duplicating the music tracks, more or less flat line my automation at the sync dialogue mix level, and route it to the M&E along with the nats and fx stem. If I do by chance have ramping or dipping within clips on the nats or fx, I do the same as I do with the undipped music.
It's kind of doing it in reverse, but I don't see how one can premix music and fx without dialogue when dialogue is wall to wall in the show. For post work, I also steer clear of riding stems for the mix because sure enough there will be revisions after it was supposedly picture locked, or down the road I'll need to conform the mix for changes for whatever reason, and I like the option of creating region groups that carry my automation. Gets tricky when things need to move and most of your mix is on aux tracks.
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  #19  
Old 08-18-2011, 05:57 PM
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BobbyDazzler BobbyDazzler is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundsculpter View Post
......but I don't see how one can premix music and fx without dialogue when dialogue is wall to wall in the show....
I'm in the boat there Soundsculpter. (And I realised I've been saying M&E when I should have been refering to Mix Minus Narration, or DME?)
Do you guys create a wall to wall atmos and foley pass with no dialog?
All of my stuff has stayed English language so far, so the need to dodge dialog hasn't really been an issue.
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  #20  
Old 09-19-2011, 05:04 PM
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orsidigital orsidigital is offline
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Default Re: Undipped music stem

I mix the full mix as usual and use pre-fader bussing from the DME with some level/peak toys along the way to create the undipped requirements. This has worked with no call-backs for decades. What is most poignant is when the overseas and/or network spec demands mono reduction of (extremely) stereo FX for the undipped stem delivery (are you listening Discovery?? no??). But try treating and balancing pre-fader sends to new audio delivery channels for your undipped needs.
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